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Hey Lee Knight: Is this better


wades_keys

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I listened to your critique. I respect your ear as a producer. I've heard your studio stuff. It's top notch. Otherwise, I would have discounted your opinion.

But: I listened to you. No more foot tapping. Freed my mind. Played with feeling. Told the rest of the guys what the criticisms were. So: we responded. Not PERFECT, nothing is. But: informed.

Hope this shows some improvement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7xE...A&feature=plcp

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Quote Originally Posted by wades_keys View Post
I listened to your critique. I respect your ear as a producer. I've heard your studio stuff. It's top notch. Otherwise, I would have discounted your opinion.

But: I listened to you. No more foot tapping. Freed my mind. Played with feeling. Told the rest of the guys what the criticisms were. So: we responded. Not PERFECT, nothing is. But: informed.

Hope this shows some improvement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7xE...A&feature=plcp
thumb.gif

(the drummer also sounds a lot more calm and in the groove)
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Wade, why all this obsessing over "groove" and feel issues? The only ones that can appreciate or care about that are other musicians, and they're not your target market. Why waste time on things that don't directly result in more $$? Are you one of those "sensitive artist" types, or something? rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif

Carry on, our Wayward Son! Totally_jammin_out.gif

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Quote Originally Posted by Piano Whore View Post
Wade, why all this obsessing over "groove" and feel issues? The only ones that can appreciate or care about that are other musicians, and they're not your target market. Why waste time on things that don't directly result in more $$? Are you one of those "sensitive artist" types, or something? rolleyes.gifbiggrin.gif
Irrelevant to Wade's video, which sounds fine, but if you're a musician and anything much over 30 and still stressing over having enough groove and feel in your playing then you probably should really be doing something else with your time. You've either got such things or you don't.

Target markets and $$ are a completely separate issue. Some bands with the most fantastic groove and feel in the world make a ton of money; some make none at all. The two things are pretty much mutually exclusive.

Which I suppose is the basis for the majority of disagreement in forums such as this? Pop-music musicians get pissed to find out that they don't get paid based on how 'good' they are as musicians to a very large degree. Some guys figure out this simple truth about the business when they are very young. Others still find the need to rebel against it until they grow very old.

I'm sorry for their discomfort.
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Quote Originally Posted by guido61

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Irrelevant to Wade's video, which sounds fine, but if you're a musician and anything much over 30 and still stressing over having enough groove and feel in your playing then you probably should really be doing something else with your time. You've either got such things or you don't.

 

I can tell that as you have matured you have continued to grow and improve as a musician. freak.gif
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Quote Originally Posted by guido61 View Post
Irrelevant to Wade's video, which sounds fine, but if you're a musician and anything much over 30 and still stressing over having enough groove and feel in your playing then you probably should really be doing something else with your time. You've either got such things or you don't.
Yep. I was just musing about this yesterday. I made a list of my talents back when I was 20-21 years old: what I could do well, what I was okay at and what I sucked at. At 42, I still can't play drums very well and only moderately improved on lead vocals and lead guitar. I'm still pretty good at keyboards, rhythm guitar, bass guitar and harmony...just like my early 20s. tongue.gif

Target markets and $$ are a completely separate issue. Some bands with the most fantastic groove and feel in the world make a ton of money; some make none at all. The two things are pretty much mutually exclusive.

Which I suppose is the basis for the majority of disagreement in forums such as this? Pop-music musicians get pissed to find out that they don't get paid based on how 'good' they are as musicians to a very large degree. Some guys figure out this simple truth about the business when they are very young. Others still find the need to rebel against it until they grow very old.

I'm sorry for their discomfort.
I noticed this early on. Talent does not directly lead to lots of $$$. If it did, jazz and classical musicians would be raking in the dough while the pop and rock guys would be making a pittance. I'm happy I can get gigs and make a decent amount of money while being 'marginally talented' (as one jealous bandleader said a few weeks back). evil.gif
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Quote Originally Posted by guido61 View Post
Irrelevant to Wade's video, which sounds fine, but if you're a musician and anything much over 30 and still stressing over having enough groove and feel in your playing then you probably should really be doing something else with your time. You've either got such things or you don't.
Of course you feel that way!

And yet... there are so many at a "certain level" that believe they've got it sussed in that department and yet are clueless. No... I think it is always a worthwhile endeavor to pursue things like an improved groove, etc.

How you can even suggest otherwise is totally beyond me, and yet does seem par for the course.

Guido! Once again championing musical mediocrity and better wedding gigs!
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Quote Originally Posted by Lee Knight View Post
Of course you feel that way!

And yet... there are so many at a "certain level" that believe they've got it sussed in that department and yet are clueless. No... I think it is always a worthwhile endeavor to pursue things like an improved groove, etc.
Of course we all strive to continually improve as we age. Hopefully with everything in life. But the raw truth is some things you either have or you don't, and with music you certainly reach a point of diminishing returns for certain efforts.

Think about it: even with bands that have been together for decades---say, ZZ Top or Rush or Tower of Power --- do those bands REALLY show marked improvements in their musical skills and abilities to groove 40 years later than they did when they were young? Sure, there is some degree of improved tightness and skill around the edges, but how they play individually and as a band is largely the same as it has even been. How many musicians with average ability to groove in their 20s did you see become groove monsters by the time they reached 50? Regardless of HOW much practice they put in?

You either have it or you don't to a very large degree. You can disagree with me on that point if you want, but that's been my experience after decades of being a musician and working with dozens.

Guido! Once again championing musical mediocrity and better wedding gigs!
facepalm.gif OK, Lee.
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^^^ Hey! It's Guido!

Wade completely transformed his groove from one video to the next, based on some friendly and hopefully helpful ideas of mine. So instead of speaking figuratively, let's talk specifics. He applied himself to a specific objective (which he inspirationally tends to do regularly it seems) and he totally nails some input. Pretty impressive.

So where is the beef? Enough of the internet hypothesizing as you tend to do. Lets talk specifics. That is what this thread and one previous is about.

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Quote Originally Posted by tim_7string

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I noticed this early on. Talent does not directly lead to lots of $$$. If it did, jazz and classical musicians would be raking in the dough while the pop and rock guys would be making a pittance.

 

Yep. I grew up listening to a lot of rock, jazz and classical. Studied classical piano and all that. I certainly wasn't very old before I was smart enough to figure out that success in the pop/rock world was about a combination of musicianship, showmanship and popular appeal.
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Quote Originally Posted by Lee Knight View Post
^^^ Hey! It's Guido!

Wade completely transformed his groove from one video to the next, based on some friendly and hopefully helpful ideas of mine. So instead of speaking figuratively, let's talk specifics. He applied himself to a specific objective (which he inspirationally tends to do regularly it seems) and he totally nails some input. Pretty impressive.
I think the main difference in the two videos is the drummer isn't so focused on trying to play to a track in the second one. And, being a new band, they're obviously going to get tighter with continued rehearsal.

Whether Wade is significantly better able to groove as a bass player than he could a few weeks ago or even several years ago? I dunno. Can't judge that from two video clips, so I won't comment on that.

So where is the beef?
No beef. Except to take Piano Whore to task for what I thought was an incorrect observation that conflated two separate issues. As we've discussed before, how a band PLAYS and how they SELL THEMSELVES are two completely separate things. This idea that one can only be done at the expense of the other, or if you haven't reached some other musician's subjective measure of skill you shouldn't even opine on selling yourself, let alone be out in the marketplace, is embarrassingly absurd for those who would take such a position.
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Wow... have I've missed this! Complete, misguided, misguidoed hogwash. Really.

 

Not that the business side and presentation side aren't important, but the fact that you post this crap on a thread having to do with groove and subtle musical performance ideas. I am truly lol'ing. Like out loud. Maybe I'm out of line but... if you really have to carry that flag nonstop, can you manage to not do it in a thread where it really doesn't belong.

 

Wade! How dare you talk about this stuff in a musician's forum!!!! We need to discuss projectors and fog machines again!!!!

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Wow... have I've missed this! Complete, misguided, misguidoed hogwash. Really.


Not that the business side and presentation side aren't important, but the fact that you post this crap on a thread having to do with groove and subtle musical performance ideas. I am truly lol'ing. Like out loud. Maybe I'm out of line but... if you really have to carry that flag nonstop, can you manage to
not
do it in a thread where it really doesn't belong.

 

It was a response to somebody else who took the subject there. Maybe you should be LOLing at him? Maybe it's YOUR direction that is misguided here? Oh, wait. It couldn't be THAT! Why, it's Mr. Lee Knight! King of grooves that want to make you {censored}, fight or cry and of showmanship on the brink of destruction! :lol:

 

But hey, you do what feels best for you. As should everyone. :thu:

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I've played in a few classic rock bands over the last couple years that played some kinds of grooves fairly well. Others, not well at all, to the point where a lot of rehearsed songs never made it to the gig. In my experience, limited "groovability" is the reason the repertoire of so many groups is severely limited, and to the extent that musical variety determines your professional success, yes, groove is important.

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