Members J.Paul Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 When this came out of the club owners mouth I was beside myself...... Do not be a jackass and argue this point with the person that is booking you. I got the date secured but am weirded-out that he honestly believes karaoke is LIVE music. What am I missing? Is that a common sentiment among civilian (non-musican types)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jeff42 Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by J.Paul When this came out of the club owners mouth I was beside myself......Do not be a jackass and argue this point with the person that is booking you.I got the date secured but am weirded-out that he honestly believes karaoke is LIVE music. What am I missing? Is that a common sentiment among civilian (non-musican types)? Nah I dont think its common. karaoke is karaoke and live music is a band/duo/soloist. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by J.Paul When this came out of the club owners mouth I was beside myself......Do not be a jackass and argue this point with the person that is booking you.I got the date secured but am weirded-out that he honestly believes karaoke is LIVE music. What am I missing? Is that a common sentiment among civilian (non-musican types)? I would hope not, but who knows? In certain areas, it could be seen that way.I know that at a few places I have played, the bar owners/manager complained about the bands that included backing tracks with their show and considered them a 'lounge' act. So those particular people would definitely not call karaoke "live" music.From what I can tell, karaoke is popular because it's relatively cheap, it's interactive and it's a good way to get people that like to drink to come into the bar, something that isn't always the case with actual live music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Well, the person singing karaoke is live, so it's one step closer to "live music" than would be a DJ or a radio in a technical sense, I suppose. And one step below the solo guy-playing-to-tracks. I think the distinction that needs to be made isn't so much whether it's "live" or not, but one of "amateurs" vs. "professionals". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted November 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by tim_7string karaoke is popular because ......., it's interactive YepThat's something that bands can't compete with.Most good bands have some sort of element that includes or engages the crowdbut that can't wholly include people the way karaoke does. I think that's why it's skyrocketed in popularity in the same way Twitter has. The old model is :you watch we playTheir model is :we watch we playThat's hard to compete with. Thankfully there are still enough people that just wanna hear good live music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nchangin Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Or live band Karaoke - they have interaction Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 In related news, electric scooters are motorcycles! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted November 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by nchangin Or live band Karaoke - they have interaction Yep.That's genius.I don't think we have one anymore in Nashville.Big Jim Slade was doin' them at The Mercy Lounge for a while but not anymore.There's one in Atlanta at The 10 High but they stopped or switched venues.Do you guys have a live band karaoke where you're at?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted November 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by wesg In related news, electric scooters are motorcycles! I would say that's a pretty accurate comparison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miko Man Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 At the risk of being incendiary (not my intention,BTW) I think the comment is representative of the common perception that popular music is mostly about singing. TV shows feature vocal acts, and in a tight shot, nobody else is there on stage. Having a band or orchestra in the pit further contributes to the appearance that they aren't there, and the backing music just appears from the speakers. I could go on about media attention almost always being focused on the vocalist, but there isn't any real need to beat that horse some more. Mark C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Categorically speaking, karaoke is lumped into the live music category. In bar business trade magazines, solo acts, acts that play or sing to tracks, karaoke, bands....anything with a live human being contributing to the act of making music is considered live musical entertainment. Where the frustration comes in is as G61 said, it's amateur vs. pro. But in a bar owner's eyes these days, pro do-it-for-a-living-bands are a thing of the past. Cover bands are mostly all weekend warriors. Now WE all know that weekend warriors can be deliver every bit the quality product as the full timers, but in the eyes of a bar owner, well that distinction is irrelevant. Very few bars can afford to pay what the full timers need. So in the eyes of the bar owner, you are no different than a karaoke singer. And if I was a bar owner, I'd finish up with "So get over yourself." But I'm not. That'd make me an a**hole bar owner. So I won't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted November 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by jeff42 Nah I dont think its common. karaoke is karaoke and live music is a band/duo/soloist. IMO whewgoodI was starting to think I was loopy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted November 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by Miko Man At the risk of being incendiary (not my intention,BTW) I think the comment is representative of the common perception that popular music is mostly about singing. TV shows feature vocal acts, and in a tight shot, nobody else is there on stage. Having a band or orchestra in the pit further contributes to the appearance that they aren't there, and the backing music just appears from the speakers. I could go on about media attention almost always being focused on the vocalist, but there isn't any real need to beat that horse some more. Mark C. yeah, that's pretty insightfulLate night talk show bands are the only exception I can think (and perhaps The Voice band)...musicians that are featured (at least in passing), which BTW ~playing in a late night talk show band is still (probably) pretty high on most people's dream gigs (at least it is on mine).... anyone know someone from Arsenio's new show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 It's all about the vocals. If you don't have a good vocalist no one is going to come to the venue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted November 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr Categorically speaking, karaoke is lumped into the live music category. In bar business trade magazines, solo acts, acts that play or sing to tracks, karaoke, bands....anything with a live human being contributing to the act of making music is considered live musical entertainment.Where the frustration comes in is as G61 said, it's amateur vs. pro. But in a bar owner's eyes these days, pro do-it-for-a-living-bands are a thing of the past. Cover bands are mostly all weekend warriors. Now WE all know that weekend warriors can be deliver every bit the quality product as the full timers, but in the eyes of a bar owner, well that distinction is irrelevant. Very few bars can afford to pay what the full timers need. Good stuff. Also very insightful.There's still no listing for karaoke in Pollstar and many trades though.....Yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr So in the eyes of the bar owner, you are no different than a karaoke singer. And in the public too. Which you can't really blame people. They don't know how the technology works, for the most part, or what work goes into it, so it really shouldn't be much surprise if they don't make much of a distinction between karaoke and a guy sitting behind a keyboard and singing along with tracks.Doesn't help when so many of the solo acts aren't much better than a lot of karaoke singers and a lot of the tracks they play to are just pre-recorded music.It's incumbant upon the musicians to make the distinction by being better, different and more professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members n9ne Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 I get where the club owner is coming from; I just happen to disagree with the premise. Karaoke is fun, but it's no more "live" than singing along to the car radio....and I doubt anyone would argue that singing in the car or shower qualifies as "live music". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tim_7string Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by J.Paul YepThat's something that bands can't compete with.Most good bands have some sort of element that includes or engages the crowdbut that can't wholly include people the way karaoke does. I think that's why it's skyrocketed in popularity in the same way Twitter has. The old model is :you watch we playTheir model is :we watch we playThat's hard to compete with. Thankfully there are still enough people that just wanna hear good live music. It also probably explains why there are people that will just suddenly grab my microphone or come up on stage and point to themselves to 'take over' on a song or two. I usually turn them away, unless it's someone like the bar owner. I know that it's a different world now, but our band is what it is. I'm the main singer and I'm not interested in letting other people take away my job simply because they are used to being up there on karoake night. It's a sense of entitlement that bothers me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted November 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by 3shiftgtr So in the eyes of the bar owner, you are no different than a karaoke singer.And if I was a bar owner, I'd finish up with "So get over yourself." But I'm not. That'd make me an a**hole bar owner. So I won't. Exactly.This is why I say "do not be a jackass and argue the point with the person that is booking you". Just get the booking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Originally Posted by J.Paul yeah, that's pretty insightfulLate night talk show bands are the only exception I can think (and perhaps The Voice band)...musicians that are featured (at least in passing), which BTW ~playing in a late night talk show band is still (probably) pretty high on most people's dream gigs (at least it is on mine) One of the main reasons I like shows like "The Voice" and "American Idol" is how good the bands are and I'm in awe of their ability to be so good, so diverse, and crank out so many tunes every week with what can't be more than just a bit of rehearsal on each tune.Having said that, so much of what is on TV isn't anything more than Karaoke or Lip-syncing, which, as Miko pointed out, certainly doesn't help. Christina Aguleira sang her new single on The Voice the other night and I'm pretty positive that everything besides her voice was tracked. So if that's a "live" performance, then why not karaoke?At the same time, musical performances on TV have been less-than-live for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J.Paul Posted November 15, 2012 Author Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 So if that's a "live" performance, then why not karaoke? Good logic. If it's on TV ("...stay tuned for a live performance from......") it's a live performance. If it's at a local sports bar it's not because it's karaoke? By Dave's logic there has to be consistancy so if it's a "live performance" on TV (using tracks) then it should be considered a live performance at the bar (using tracks via karaoke). I'll be over there curled up in a fetal position ~~~> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miko Man Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 (Donning Ludite attire): Guido's comment about technology makes a good point. When there is no apparent difference between backing tracks and live performance, "the musicians" lose a bit. When a backing track is made using samples, that's another loss. Same for synth sounds that replace (for instance) a horn player. Ditto for electronic harmonizers. But similar arguements were made with the invention and acceptance of audio recording, and then radio, movies, and TV. I dunno. As Ian Shoals says, "I gotta go." (Removes wooden shoes, etc.) Mark C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Good logic. If it's on TV ("...stay tuned for a live performance from......") it's a live performance. If it's at a local sports bar it's not because it's karaoke? By Dave's logic there has to be consistancy so if it's a "live performance" on TV (using tracks) then it should be considered a live performance at the bar (using tracks via karaoke). I'll be over there curled up in a fetal position ~~~> Yeah, I just don't see how you can convince people who don't know better (and really shouldn't be expected to) that one is "live" and the other is not. So the distinction needs to be on "professional". Because, pretty obviously, if Christina Aguleira walked into a karaoke bar and got up and sang a song, everyone there would consider that a "live performance", wouldn't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Or live band Karaoke - they have interaction I been to bar that had a live band and you just sit in and sing. I felt sorry for the musicians who had to endure all of the awful singers that sat in to sing. They were great musician and great band with KB player that dubbed on guitar but just hearing some of the people sitting in butchering the tunes was some what painful to your ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rob_Rocks Posted November 15, 2012 Members Share Posted November 15, 2012 Yep.That's genius.I don't think we have one anymore in Nashville.Big Jim Slade was doin' them at The Mercy Lounge for a while but not anymore.There's one in Atlanta at The 10 High but they stopped or switched venues.Do you guys have a live band karaoke where you're at?? The band that does 'Live Karaoke' here, is the best paid band around these parts. They are even flown out of state to do their 'Live Karaoke' thing for large coporations, etc. They can play over 1,000 songs and have the lyrics scrolling on screens for the patrons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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