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  • Want some opinions on this situation with a national corporate bar.

    So... I want opinions from the braintrust here, because I know sometimes I only see one side of things.

    About this time last year, we made an agreement with a national chain place to play their venue. Ten to twelve dates at decent money (with built in sound/lights). At the time, we made the agreement that if they were able to secure a national artist.. being someone that gets major radio play.. they could pull our dates with little to no notice. They were absolutely NOT allowed to do so for a local or touring band, however, per our agreement. They also asked that we not play at X, Y, and Z. Z was no longer doing bands.. Y was 40 miles away, and we only rarely worked with X at the time, so we agreed.

    Fast forward to last month. By that time, the chain place had double booked and screwed up more dates of ours than we played.. having pulled two for national acts, and double booking over another four or five. All in all, it was between $4000 to $5000 in lost work, most of which with less than a week's notice. I was informed that our two dates in December were double booked (those are a part of the above cancelled.. I only got advance notice, two weeks in one case, because I called to ask after having an idea they were double booked)... but, we booked a number of dates for next year. My complaints about the lost work and way things were done got met with "oh, it's corporate, and it's all straightened out now for next year".

    Around the same time, about a week before, we get a call from X place. They want us for the pre-Thanksgiving party. We take it, figuring there's no way the chain place can be upset when they screwed us so royally over the last year, and broke our agreement multiple times.. but we still only booked the one date, to stem part of the losses we'd incurred from them breaking our agreement, and didn't promote it on our FB or website, as we didn't want to be disloyal to the chain place.

    Today, I get a TEXT from a manager at the chain place saying "Sorry, corporate saw you played at X and is pulling all your dates for 2014". I'm dumbfounded. Really? This place costs me thousands of dollars, and despite my loyalty (in NOT pulling dates, and NOT booking 2014 with X), they still pull my dates?

     

    Needless to say, finding the person to deal with at corporate was extremely difficult, but after getting his name and number, I left a message on his voicemail, explaining the situation. We'll see what comes of it after that.

     

     


    I do realize that two wrongs don't make a right... but if you take money out of my hand, how can you be mad at me for trying to make up for that loss? Am I wrong to be completely livid about this?

     


  • #2

    They're arsehats - book as many dates as you can with those venues they don't want you at and move on.


    "We Have Met the Enemy and He is Us" - Walt Kelly​

    Comment


    • Blackbird 13
      Blackbird 13 commented
      Editing a comment

      RoadRanger wrote:

      They're arsehats - book as many dates as you can with those venues they don't want you at and move on.


       

      I dunno.. I don't even feel like that begins to make up for the lost work and the way I was treated. This all could just be a misunderstanding (perhaps corporate not even knowing about the double bookings)..  but assuming it's not, I feel like I should at least make it clear to the other bands and the bar crowd around here how this place operates. They don't flaunt it, for sure.. and I have to wonder if people would still go there if they knew. The venue's struggling, but supported by a huge corporate bank account... the place has already taken a number of local PR hits it's struggling to get past.


  • #3

    You set yourself up to be treated poorly when you agreed that they could pull your dates with little or no notice.  By doing that, you gave up any leverage.  Then adding fuel to the fire, you allowed them to restrict other bookings.

    How is it that you can consider dates booked when they have the right to cancel without penalty? If you had insisted on a 50% cancellation fee(with say 2 weeks notice, and full pay for last minute cancellations) in the event that they wanted to bring in a national act, they might have hesitated pulling your dates. Leaving a VM was another mistake IMO. What are you hoping they do? Honor an agreement that is so one sided that it's a liability for you?

    Cancelling your 2014 dates.....what dates? The fact that they cancelled their ability to cancel you?-they did you a favor.

    Work the other clubs hard and crush them. And if they call you back, play hardball.

    Comment


    • Blackbird 13
      Blackbird 13 commented
      Editing a comment

      MartinC wrote:

      You set yourself up to be treated poorly when you agreed that they could pull your dates with little or no notice.  By doing that, you gave up any leverage.  Then ading fuel to the fire, you allowed them to restrict other bookings.

      How is it that you can consider dates booked when they have the right to cancel without penalty? If you had insisted on a 50% cancellation fee(with say 2 weeks notice, and full pay for last minute cancellations) in the event that they wanted to bring in a national act, they might have hesitated pulling your dates. Leaving a VM was another mistake IMO. What are you hoping they do? Honor an agreement that is so one sided that it's a liability for you?

      Cancelling your 2014 dates.....what dates? The fact that they cancelled their ability to cancel you?-they did you a favor.

      Work the other clubs hard and crush them. And if they call you back, play hardball.


      Didn't really look at it that way.. but you have a point. I agreed that they could pull for a national artist because if they can get an act that draws capacity at $20 a head over the usual crowd the local cover bands bring, I can understand the business sense behind that, and don't want to screw them out of that.

      The dates paid pretty well and were typically mid week dates, when they were honored.. plus the chain place has house lights and sound.. very simple gig. But you do have some pretty solid points.


  • #4

    Blackbird 13 wrote:

    Today, I get a TEXT from a manager at the chain place saying "Sorry, corporate saw you played at X and is pulling all your dates for 2014". I'm dumbfounded. Really? This place costs me thousands of dollars, and despite my loyalty (in NOT pulling dates, and NOT booking 2014 with X), they still pull my dates?


     

    Well, hold on a minute... if you commit contractually to not playing at X, then you do, in fact, play at X, I think you should expect them to react very negatively, regardless of whatever else is going on.

    Sure, THEY may have taken advantage of the contractual situation. But that's irrelevant when it comes to YOUR side of the deal. If you had wanted to save the relationship, I think the best approach would have been to follow the contract to the letter from your side, then turn around and basically say "You keep screwing up, we don't, what are you going to do to change this?" Saying "You keep screwing up, so we get to ignore the contract as well..." just doesn't fly, especially in the corporate world. You might as well just tear the contract up completely.

    Just my two cents. Morally, of course you are in the right in doing what you did. But that doesn't particularly matter when it comes to the business arrangement.

    Comment


    • Blackbird 13
      Blackbird 13 commented
      Editing a comment

      rangefinder wrote:

      Blackbird 13 wrote:

      Today, I get a TEXT from a manager at the chain place saying "Sorry, corporate saw you played at X and is pulling all your dates for 2014". I'm dumbfounded. Really? This place costs me thousands of dollars, and despite my loyalty (in NOT pulling dates, and NOT booking 2014 with X), they still pull my dates?


       

      Well, hold on a minute... if you commit contractually to not playing at X, then you do, in fact, play at X, I think you should expect them to react very negatively, regardless of whatever else is going on.

      Sure, THEY may have taken advantage of the contractual situation. But that's irrelevant when it comes to YOUR side of the deal. If you had wanted to save the relationship, I think the best approach would have been to follow the contract to the letter from your side, then turn around and basically say "You keep screwing up, we don't, what are you going to do to change this?" Saying "You keep screwing up, so we get to ignore the contract as well..." just doesn't fly, especially in the corporate world. You might as well just tear the contract up completely.

      Just my two cents. Morally, of course you are in the right in doing what you did. But that doesn't particularly matter when it comes to the business arrangement.


       In my eyes, our verbal agreement was broken the first time they cancelled a date on us for a local band..

      I agree that I probably should have handled it differently (and should have already contacted corporate).. but I can't really see how they didn't breach the verbal contract we made well before we did. I'd never have played X except that I was trying to make up losses caused by the national chain's mismanagement and possible dishonesty.

       

      While I do get what you're saying.. I can't really see a lot of sympathy for the chain place if anyone sees the circumstances.


  • #5

     At the time, we made the agreement that if they were able to secure a national artist.. being someone that gets major radio play.. they could pull our dates with little to no notice. They were absolutely NOT allowed to do so for a local or touring band, however, per our agreement. 


    I'm sure you had your reasons for it, but this... this sounds insane to me. You told a corporate office they could manage YOUR band. Yikes.


    They also asked that we not play at X, Y, and Z. Z was no longer doing bands.. Y was 40 miles away, and we only rarely worked with X at the time, so we agreed. 


    Okay, but...


    Around the same time, about a week before, we get a call from X place. They want us for the pre-Thanksgiving party. We take it, figuring there's no way the chain place can be upset when they screwed us so royally over the last year, and broke our agreement multiple times..


    ... then you did this.

    i completely understand your frustration with this company, and morally understand why you did what you did, but you also broke your side of the agreement. We spend hours on this forum talking about how we as musicians are treated unfairly by the bars/ clubs/ companies, and we kind of roll with it.

    The reality of it is that you were willing to take the bad business from the corporate group, but they weren't willing to take the bad business from you. By booking with X, you broke the agreement.

    So again, I understand and morally side with you, but you did break your part of the agreement. That being said, wash your hands of these mindless, poor-business, self-centered entertainment retards and stick with business you have a say in. If your band is of such quality that they were pulling you for all the national gigs, then you've got PLENTY of room to work with new places and kick some butt. So just move on and treat it as lesson learned.

    My two cents, and happy gigging!

     

    Music, music, I hear music

    Comment


    • Blackbird 13
      Blackbird 13 commented
      Editing a comment

      FitchFY wrote:

       At the time, we made the agreement that if they were able to secure a national artist.. being someone that gets major radio play.. they could pull our dates with little to no notice. They were absolutely NOT allowed to do so for a local or touring band, however, per our agreement. 


      I'm sure you had your reasons for it, but this... this sounds insane to me. You told a corporate office they could manage YOUR band. Yikes.

      i completely understand your frustration with this company, and morally understand why you did what you did, but you also broke your side of the agreement. We spend hours on this forum talking about how we as musicians are treated unfairly by the bars/ clubs/ companies, and we kind of roll with it.

      The reality of it is that you were willing to take the bad business from the corporate group, but they weren't willing to take the bad business from you. By booking with X, you broke the agreement.

      So again, I understand and morally side with you, but you did break your part of the agreement. That being said, wash your hands of these mindless, poor-business, self-centered entertainment retards and stick with business you have a say in. If your band is of such quality that they were pulling you for all the national gigs, then you've got PLENTY of room to work with new places and kick some butt. So just move on and treat it as lesson learned.

      My two cents, and happy gigging!


      We'd made an agreement with the corporate chain that I felt was fair to them and us.. they just didn't honor what was agreed upon. Looking back, I'd have drawn up a contract with them.. lesson learned for the next time I deal with anyone who wants certain terms on things.


      I TOTALLY get what you (and the poster above) are saying. And it's another perspective. But my issue is that I still don't feel like I've done bad business... I don't feel like I've screwed anyone over. We didn't have any remaining dates with the chain place left in 2013, and hadn't played there since August.. so in my eyes, we really WEREN'T booked with the chain place at the time.

       

       

      Still, thanks for the advice, certainly another perspective


  • #6

    <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://www.patcoast.com" target="_blank">http://www.patcoast.com</a><br><br><br><br><font size="1">&quot;The guy would be strumming along, singing the verse to “Margarittavile” and then he would hit his harmonizer pedal for the chorus. It went from sounding like a guy singing and playing guitar to sounding like the Stephen Hawkings trio.&quot;-<i>Christhee68</i></font><br><br><br><br><font size="1">&quot; the singer of my cover band used to find it funny to let out gaseous forms of vile hate and sadness that would make a plaster baby Jesus weep.&quot;-<i> FitchFY</i></font></div>

    Comment


    • #7

      Blackbird 13 wrote:

      So... I want opinions from the braintrust here, because I know sometimes I only see one side of things.

      About this time last year, we made an agreement with a national chain place to play their venue. Ten to twelve dates at decent money (with built in sound/lights). At the time, we made the agreement that if they were able to secure a national artist.. being someone that gets major radio play.. they could pull our dates with little to no notice. They were absolutely NOT allowed to do so for a local or touring band, however, per our agreement. They also asked that we not play at X, Y, and Z. Z was no longer doing bands.. Y was 40 miles away, and we only rarely worked with X at the time, so we agreed.

      Fast forward to last month. By that time, the chain place had double booked and screwed up more dates of ours than we played.. having pulled two for national acts, and double booking over another four or five. All in all, it was between $4000 to $5000 in lost work, most of which with less than a week's notice. I was informed that our two dates in December were double booked (those are a part of the above cancelled.. I only got advance notice, two weeks in one case, because I called to ask after having an idea they were double booked)... but, we booked a number of dates for next year. My complaints about the lost work and way things were done got met with "oh, it's corporate, and it's all straightened out now for next year".

      Around the same time, about a week before, we get a call from X place. They want us for the pre-Thanksgiving party. We take it, figuring there's no way the chain place can be upset when they screwed us so royally over the last year, and broke our agreement multiple times.. but we still only booked the one date, to stem part of the losses we'd incurred from them breaking our agreement, and didn't promote it on our FB or website, as we didn't want to be disloyal to the chain place.

      Today, I get a TEXT from a manager at the chain place saying "Sorry, corporate saw you played at X and is pulling all your dates for 2014". I'm dumbfounded. Really? This place costs me thousands of dollars, and despite my loyalty (in NOT pulling dates, and NOT booking 2014 with X), they still pull my dates?

       

      Needless to say, finding the person to deal with at corporate was extremely difficult, but after getting his name and number, I left a message on his voicemail, explaining the situation. We'll see what comes of it after that.

       

       


      I do realize that two wrongs don't make a right... but if you take money out of my hand, how can you be mad at me for trying to make up for that loss? Am I wrong to be completely livid about this?

       


      Re-read your first thee paragraphs. And you're upset they pulled the dates you had? This place sounds like a frigging TRAIN WRECK and pulling your dates was probably a big favor to you. I'd have been gone the second time they double booked me. Clearly, they have no clue how to run a booking system. And if I were you, I'd remind them that you had a contract with them, and even if it's verbal, their double booking put them in breach of it, not you. 

      <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://www.patcoast.com" target="_blank">http://www.patcoast.com</a><br><br><br><br><font size="1">&quot;The guy would be strumming along, singing the verse to “Margarittavile” and then he would hit his harmonizer pedal for the chorus. It went from sounding like a guy singing and playing guitar to sounding like the Stephen Hawkings trio.&quot;-<i>Christhee68</i></font><br><br><br><br><font size="1">&quot; the singer of my cover band used to find it funny to let out gaseous forms of vile hate and sadness that would make a plaster baby Jesus weep.&quot;-<i> FitchFY</i></font></div>

      Comment

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