Well we got screwed...

[jeff42]

Well it was bound to happen... My band usually doesn't get screwed by the club owner but we did recently. We have a great working relationship with all the rooms we play in and we always try to see both sides and work with management on bad nights and so on... We've been lucky I guess I should say but recently it happened.

 

We got screwed over...

 

Your input is welcome as to where to go from here.

 

Here's the story.

 

A few months back I was contacted through FB message by the owner a nice club that is about an hour and a half drive away. We have never played the city before so we agreed to play 1st time for $650. We figured this can give us a start in the area. The sound man, system & lights were provided so it would be an easy load in/ out.

 

Well the club did zero promo online. Nothing local, nothing on FB or their website... Nothing other than share our event on FB that day. Other bands have been promoted there and they have Friday night bands weekly...

 

So needless to say it was pretty empty room that night but there were still people there. Not what they are used to but we didnt play to a totally empty room. The staff was great, place was nice, the soundman was awesome and system made us sound like a million bucks.

 

The Band is supposed to play from 8pm-11pm. I talked with the manager who didn't really care how we played it out so I said we're going to do 3 sets: 8pm- 9: 05pm, 9:20-10:15pm, and 10:30-11pm with two breaks around 10-15 minutes each. He said that would be great. And off we went. We played well and got several complements from the people who were there. I feel it was one of our best performances in awhile. IMO we killed it to a small crowd.

When we finished the 2nd set at 10:15pm the manager said he was stopping us, we are to take a cut and end the night. That was at 10:15pm. I said I'll cut our rate back to $550 since we only have about one half hour set left figuring if he does counter he will counter the offer with around $500 and we can go from there. Perhaps we can book again and it will be better....

and that's when he handed me $300 and told me that's all he had on him to pay us and we are to leave. So we did. No use fighting since he was the manager not the owner. I told him nicely I'll take it up with the owner for the remainder he owes us.

 

The Next day I sent this message to the owner via FB:

Hello XXXXXX, I would like to thank you for booking the band at XXXXXXX. It is a beautiful place, your soundman was top notch and your staff was gracious and courteous to us the entire night. While the crowd at your establishment was small we did do what a band is hired to do, and that is entertain your customers.

After our second set which was at approximately 10:15pm your manager, decided to have us stop performing and offered us $300. When I informed him our agreement was for $650 he explained to me that he does not have that amount of money on him or on the premises at the moment.

Since we were to take a short 10-15 minute break and perform one last set until 11pm that we never got to perform I will not charge you for the work that was not done. I will however ask that you mail me a check for $250 to pay the band as per our agreement minus $100 for stopping early by the request of your manager.

A check can be mailed to: (MY ADDRESS)

Thank you.

 

 

THIS WAS HIS RESPONSE:

Listen brother. You guys were great. Good guys. But you guys had less than 5 people come to see u play. We even put it on a billboard on XXXXX. And all social media. No disrespect but to be honest your lucky I didn't pull it before u even started, because you guys didn't pull anyone. For that price. You should be pulling way more than 5 people. And if there was an actual agreement it would say if you don't drawl xxx amount of people or the bar doesn't make xxx amount of money. The agreement is void. Being that there was no written agreement I think 300 plus your drinking tab was overly fair. Thank you for reaching out. And thank you for your attempt last night. But that's where it ends brother.

 

 

So any thoughts?

[Opus Antics]

Well, you asked for thoughts, so here's my two cents.

 

In my experience, I've payed at distant locales where we didn't draw and ended up playing to a pretty dead house. And I've played at distant locales where we had a decent draw, but the owner screwed us over at the end of the night anyway.

 

So my take: You showed up. Got cut short by one set out of three due to a lackluster crowd. If there is absolutely no draw and the place is dead, you have to assume, whether you agree or not, that the management is going to want to cut the night short. Since you played 2 out of three, you should have been paid 2/3 the rate. So he should have handed you about $400. He gave you $300.

 

Maybe it's just me, but I'd have taken the $300 and left it at that. Asking for $550 was bold, and following up with an email was even bolder. I applaud your tenacity but I'm not surprised it played out the way it did. You got a little bit screwed, but it could have been worse. He could have let you go all night and THEN give you the $300.

 

For me, I won't play distant places anymore where I know I won't draw a crowd. Particularly if it is the type of venue that depends upon the band's draw to fill the venue. A lot of places like that these days. All of us on the board agree that's not the way we think it should be as paid performers, and we all agree that's a dangerous business model, but it's the way a whole lot of places operate.

 

I'm not saying it's ok, and I'm not saying you didn't get screwed (though I think you got screwed a lot less than you do), but I'd have let it go for the sake of preserving the relationship (if you ever wanted to go back or if you thought the booker might at some point book venues you do want to get into).

 

But that's me.

 

PS: I had a very similar situation where a club owner contacted me via FB and offered me a night where he had a cancellation. Distant locale, no draw, no fans out that way. No promotion by the club other than our name on a sign out front. The only people in the place were the 5 people we brought. From far away. Not a single one of his own patrons showed up. After the second set I offered to cut the night short, and he said to play through the whole thing. So we did, and he paid the agreed rate, but we never played there again, and when that bar owner opened a second location in our own back yard, where we do have a following, he wouldn't book us. So when I say it could have been worse, that's one example.

[jeff42]

All signs pointed to this place actually having a crowd and not relying on bands to pull their own. But I was wrong.

 

The $300 IMO was too low since we played only about a half hour less of our scheduled time. Going all night was only 1 more short half hour set. That is less than half of what we we should have been paid. If we were shut down after 1 set... sure I can see $300...

 

Not sure why the The follow up is bold... but it may be I guess, i dont know ... Who knows if the owner was even aware that the manager cut us and payed us $300? That was another reason I sent the message

 

I do the same thing in my day job if a client doesn't pay.

[sventvkg]

Well it was bound to happen... My band usually doesn't get screwed by the club owner but we did recently. We have a great working relationship with all the rooms we play in and we always try to see both sides and work with management on bad nights and so on... We've been lucky I guess I should say but recently it happened.

 

We got screwed over...

 

Your input is welcome as to where to go from here.

 

Here's the story.

 

A few months back I was contacted through FB message by the owner a nice club that is about an hour and a half drive away. We have never played the city before so we agreed to play 1st time for $650. We figured this can give us a start in the area. The sound man, system & lights were provided so it would be an easy load in/ out.

 

Well the club did zero promo online. Nothing local, nothing on FB or their website... Nothing other than share our event on FB that day. Other bands have been promoted there and they have Friday night bands weekly...

 

So needless to say it was pretty empty room that night but there were still people there. Not what they are used to but we didnt play to a totally empty room. The staff was great, place was nice, the soundman was awesome and system made us sound like a million bucks.

 

The Band is supposed to play from 8pm-11pm. I talked with the manager who didn't really care how we played it out so I said we're going to do 3 sets: 8pm- 9: 05pm, 9:20-10:15pm, and 10:30-11pm with two breaks around 10-15 minutes each. He said that would be great. And off we went. We played well and got several complements from the people who were there. I feel it was one of our best performances in awhile. IMO we killed it to a small crowd.

When we finished the 2nd set at 10:15pm the manager said he was stopping us, we are to take a cut and end the night. That was at 10:15pm. I said I'll cut our rate back to $550 since we only have about one half hour set left figuring if he does counter he will counter the offer with around $500 and we can go from there. Perhaps we can book again and it will be better....

and that's when he handed me $300 and told me that's all he had on him to pay us and we are to leave. So we did. No use fighting since he was the manager not the owner. I told him nicely I'll take it up with the owner for the remainder he owes us.

 

The Next day I sent this message to the owner via FB:

Hello XXXXXX, I would like to thank you for booking the band at XXXXXXX. It is a beautiful place, your soundman was top notch and your staff was gracious and courteous to us the entire night. While the crowd at your establishment was small we did do what a band is hired to do, and that is entertain your customers.

After our second set which was at approximately 10:15pm your manager, decided to have us stop performing and offered us $300. When I informed him our agreement was for $650 he explained to me that he does not have that amount of money on him or on the premises at the moment.

Since we were to take a short 10-15 minute break and perform one last set until 11pm that we never got to perform I will not charge you for the work that was not done. I will however ask that you mail me a check for $250 to pay the band as per our agreement minus $100 for stopping early by the request of your manager.

A check can be mailed to: (MY ADDRESS)

Thank you.

 

 

THIS WAS HIS RESPONSE:

Listen brother. You guys were great. Good guys. But you guys had less than 5 people come to see u play. We even put it on a billboard on XXXXX. And all social media. No disrespect but to be honest your lucky I didn't pull it before u even started, because you guys didn't pull anyone. For that price. You should be pulling way more than 5 people. And if there was an actual agreement it would say if you don't drawl xxx amount of people or the bar doesn't make xxx amount of money. The agreement is void. Being that there was no written agreement I think 300 plus your drinking tab was overly fair. Thank you for reaching out. And thank you for your attempt last night. But that's where it ends brother.

 

 

So any thoughts?

 

Ok....

 

First of all this sucks brother. Never happened to me. Had to almost beat this {censored} out of a few club owners back in the day but that's how I rolled when I was young. Sorry man.

 

That said. Did you have a contract? If not, you now know you need one. Also, why are you driving an hour and a half to gig? There's probably 2000 places to play within an hour and a half of my house. There's got to be enough places to play locally...If not bummer, you're in the sticks....

 

Also, was this club under some illusion that you would bring people in? Was that in the agreement? IT sounds like a classic screwing but without a contract other than verbal you are going to have to take him to small claims and it will probably be a wash after you driving back to that jurisdiction to file and go back for your court date. THAT SAID, I WOULD sue them on principal. I'd also contact every band I can find that does or might potentially play their place and share your experience. Just honest, no libel. Do you have proof in an email or exchange that the club owner agreed to pay you the $650? IF so you'll probably win in court but most likely won't get your cash back as the club will probably go bankrupt soon.

 

So we see that what I always say, playing bars is a bad business plan. Fine, do it if it's fun for you or a weekend warrior thing and find some places close to home where your friends can all come and hang out etc..But if you're trying to make money in this business you need to get out of bars...STAT. Find a core group of places that you do well at and who consistently pay you, that are close to home and cultivate your band there. Then, if you want to move up to corporate/private events save the money to invest in the infrastructure, marketing, promo and gear you'll need to move up to that echelon. My opinion as we get older this is the ONLY viable business option.

[jeff42]

No contract but I do have the FB messages where we agreed on price and they knew we never played in this city before.

 

We are trying to do less bars and more worthwhile gigs and we get some wedding & private work but not enough and in the past 9 months we have been basically rebuilding after our singer left.

[sventvkg]

I feel ya bro. I say sue him. Verbal agreement backed up by FB messages. You'll win.

[GtrGeorge!]

Jeff,

Really sorry to hear about this. You sound and act like a pro. If you want my opinion, and you DID ask... forget these fools. Not every place is for you and what you have to offer. Some people like, chocolate..some people Vanilla. I'd just move on and make a note of the people involved. Sometimes you get to meet them again. And then you would note they break their word. Contracts? I am not confident that it would have played out any different, snake are snakes. People break contracts, anyway,as I am sure you are aware. Re: Playing Bars?? Someone posted Bars=Bad. I wouldn't agree with that blanket statement, IMHO, there is good and bad in everything (ask Paul McCartney and Stevie Wonder....) and the same is true for bars and bar owners. There are bars owners who are serious about their business and there are those Jack-holes who inherit some wealth and think they can run a bar (there are lots of these jokers..they don't last long). Find the good guys (and girls) work with them. And again, good riddance to bad garbage. Rock on, no matter what. -George Barry.net

[jeff42]

Thanks George. And you're right there are good guys who run good live music venues. We play at a few now. Sadly we do have to travel more and more for decent gigs. Hence the branching out. My hometown has pretty much nothing left but there are a few within an hour drive for us and we play them. But its barely enough right now to keep the 4-6X a month we like to play. So we do look for the better gigs and that usually isnt a bar gig but then again sometimes it is. You never know. One of my favorite gigs was a corner bar we used to play a few years back.

[trevcda]

I had a long post with with plenty of expletives, but never mind my venting. It happened to one group I was with a long time ago and wouldn't you know it, some idiot left the liquor room unlocked while we were loading out! (We got a raise!)

 

First- Name names. As somebody said, don't lie, just state the facts. So maybe somebody else goes in a little forewarned about these clowns.

 

Second- Contracts with terms your willing to defend. If they won't sign it or even attempt to negotiate it, I ain't going.

 

Third- Make it known, in no uncertain terms, that you are there to entertain their crowd and keep them there.

 

You do not have a following in their area and it's not likely that any of your crowd will make the 1.5 hour trip to their bar. And then ask them if they have a regular crowd. Sometimes that gets them thinking about what they may or may not be doing to maintain their local crowd. But don't count on it. I've had this conversation work a few times where they said, "Well yeah, our crowd would love you guys!", and back fire a few times, where they changed their minds and I got to stay home (or do a different/better gig), but either way we both knew the deal going in. It's important when it's a few blocks away, but it's very important when your dragging a production a couple hundred miles away.

[ski219]

I don't see how a club can expect you to pull anyone in that far from your home base...unless you are a bigger regional act. And if that were the case they would have to pay a lot more than $650.

 

Interesting to me because just yesterday a booker for a new, about to open club, contacted us through FB asking us for dates. I asked our singer, who handles all our bookings to let the guy know we would not be drawing our regular crowd up to his area. We will charge him a premium, but I am hoping he goes away; I hate driving that far for a gig. And I really hate driving that far home from a gig!

[sventvkg]

good guys running live music venues are fewer and farther between these days. That's why I recommend not playing bars plus for me the pay is too crappy. All we can do is use our best judgement and keep rockin till we can rock no more!!

[RoadRanger]

Most venue owners are delusional IME. Plan accordingly;) .

[1001gear]

No sho biz from me. Maybe you were pied? Motivations and details aside, maybe the existing crowd was an audition? They all have phones but didn't get the word out on your "special presentation"? The owner has arithmetic proof you weren't worth the bux to him. He cut his losses end of subject to him.

[Craig Vecchione]

1. Contract.

 

2. Contract.

 

3. Contract.

 

Having said that, you actually had a contract...the FB messages would be acceptable as evidence of the agreement between you and the owner. You could try taking him to small claims court for the difference, but is it worth the time, hassle, risk of losing (your agreement might not sound as clear-cut to the judge) and chance that the guy still won't pay if you win? That's right, he could lose, and not pay. Then you have to sue for a summary judgment to force him to pay. For a few hundred, I'd say it was a very small price to pay for an important lesson in business management. Yep, if you work for money, you're in business, and have to treat the business aspects of this in the same way as any other business owner.

 

There are sites with pretty good contract templates. You could also hire a local lawyer to write a contract for you...it's not as expensive as you may think.

 

Contracts have a secondary advantage...they weed out the venues that didn't plan to treat you fairly in the first place. Shady joints are skeered to sign paper.

 

Now, I'll add this. I can understand the venue's position, and it does help to look at both sides, difficult as it may be when you still have the "sting" of being bitten. They only hire bands to bring in paying patrons. While bands make an effort to earn money AND have a good time doing what they love, most venues are in it to earn a living. Period. When you meet a new venue manager/owner/PIC, it really pays to have a short discussion about their expectations for draw. Will they advertise? How and where? Do they expect you to drag in your own following? If so, how many do you anticipate you can provide? Be honest...if you play to tiny venues and bring 25 people, that might be great for the corner joint, but really disappointing to a 300+ capacity club owner. Just be clear and upfront and let the PIC do most of the talking. And yeah, it doesn't hurt to front the venue beforehand...FB is great, but meeting people face to face gives you a chance to get a feel for the scene, and for them to see you're serious. Mutual benefit is the goal, always.

 

 

[RoadRanger]

1. Contract.

Do you actually have venues that will sign a contract where you live? Wow...

[Craig Vecchione]

Do you actually have venues that will sign a contract where you live? Wow...

 

Only a few, but there are precious few venues with any music, so it's a depressed situation to begin with.

[1001gear]

We have buy beer audio where I live. It's not so bad. No music though.

[jeff42]

whenever I have to book the band. I spell it out in email, txt or FB message especially when I talk in person so I can have a record of our conversation. the word contract gives most people the "willies." so I use performance agreement. The only places I have had luck with that have been the private parties, weddings and bigger clubs, ski resorts & casinos we play. Bars dont want to be bothered unfortunate... With the clubs, resorts and casinos THEY usually send me one.

 

also when I do speak to a bar owner/ manager and they ask the awful question of "how many people ya gunna brings?" I usually respond with, I cant guarantee one person through the doors the night we play. What I will guarantee is we will entertain the crowd that is there. If they scoff at that then I am not sure we will be a good fit. If they "get it" its usually the start of a good relationship.

 

usually. LOL

[Vito Corleone]

Well, just in case it hasn't been said yet...>THAT SUCKS!!!!

 

​Maybe taking them to small claims court isn't such a bad idea. Ask for the full amount, present your case regarding your verbal contract and the FB messages and that nowhere was it expressed or implied that you were supposed to bring ANY amount of patrons and see what the judge says. If nothing else, it will be a learning experience.

 

This thread comes up at the right time for me (thanks Jeff, although sorry you had to go through this!) because we just earlier this week got a text-out-of-the-blue from a club wanting to book us for a Friday night gig coming up in a couple of weeks.

 

We haven't played a club in like 6 years. But we decided to take the gig because---even though it's a couple of hours away for some of us and we'll barely end up breaking even on it --- it's A) one of the top live music venues in Northern California, B) we probably SHOULD play in public more often, if for no other reason, to be able to offer it as a 'showcase' for people wanting to book us for private events C) we're working in a new drummer and it comes up a week before our first weekend with him---not a bad idea to use the gig as an opportunity to run through the sets before a live crowd.

 

Plus, the girls are excited about it. I think they're itching to do a down-and-dirty club gig and have a chance to invite friends and family out to see the band.

 

But, this reminds me to make sure that---even if there isn't going to be a written contract---that they fully understand that there is virtually a 0% chance that we will draw enough people to cover the $1000 they are paying us. It's nice, on one hand, to see that less than 24 hours after we agreed to do the gig they already have announced on their FB page and website that we are booked and used our pic, etc etc,. On the other hand, you could paste our name and faces on giant billboards all across Sacramento and we still probably won't draw more than 10 people.

 

Which led me to wonder "why did they want to hire us in the first place"? So we asked. Apparently the gal who books the band is tired of the same ol' same ol' they bring in for their 'local band' Friday night slot and wants more bands that are better able to play a variety of material rather than just one style all night long and so Googled around for bands and ran across us....

 

...hookay. Well, I'll keep an open mind and hope it all goes all well she hopes and do our best to make sure we get paid!

 

Long story short....clubowners who reach out to YOU and bring you in from another city and are then surprised when you don't draw 250 people? Yeah... not really getting that one.....

 

 

 

[wesg]

There are sites with pretty good contract templates. You could also hire a local lawyer to write a contract for you...it's not as expensive as you may think.

 

If you are an AFM member, there are contract templates on the union website as well.

 

We had a similar out-of-town (30 miles) bad-draw on St. Patty's this year. I'm not sure what the club owner was thinking................but he also paid us and said he'll book us again, but on a more suitable night this summer. We'll see how that goes. The people that WERE there had a great time. The club owner in this case also did decent promo, also. It was just a lousy night.

 

Wes

[GtrGeorge!]

In the end, its all about relationships..and it takes alot of time and effort to develop them, YOU have to do your part, and so does the venue. There are no free lunches. Learn the songs, be on time, dress correctly, etc You will meet jerks , that is par for the course..you will also meet awesome people ,too. Just like ANY other bizness. It isn't all that different.

[t_e_l_e]

suck it up, you didn't have to pay for the beer like the blues brothers

 

we are doing only small gigs and only for fun, not for the money. and do only play very seldom gigs.

but living in a capital city of 1,6million people, there are quit a number of places to gig.

all of them are different and have different conditions.

 

a small unknown hobbyist band always needs to draw the crowd on their own.

 

in most places except one, we need to pay for the sound guy. sound guys are always nice, but some are better than others and some suck and do not know "their" board.

sound guy could be between $50 or $200 depending on the venue.

we try with cover fees or letting a hat go around not to make any minus.

free drinks are seldom offered, and if than only limited to one or two per person in the band.

 

some venues let you sign contracts, that a minimum of say 50 or 100 people come, or that venue needs to make this and that money on drinks other wise the band needs to cover some costs. 50 people can already be a lot of people, but none of these venues have ever complaint to us, even if there were less than 50 people.

 

other places hand you out 50 tickets for a reduced price which the bands needs to pay upfront, and sell for the normal price. the difference between the full price will be the pay for the band. (these venues really suck )

 

down side of living in a capital city, its even harder for you, if need to do it for the money, cause almost every day major act is playing and bars with cover bands do not draw that much attention.

 

but hey, at least there are some opportunities to play out. often at "country-side" there is nothing.

[Drummer44]

When you meet a new venue manager/owner/PIC, it really pays to have a short discussion about their expectations for draw. Will they advertise? How and where? Do they expect you to drag in your own following? If so, how many do you anticipate you can provide? Be honest...if you play to tiny venues and bring 25 people, that might be great for the corner joint, but really disappointing to a 300+ capacity club owner. Just be clear and upfront and let the PIC do most of the talking.

 

 

More of this. Can't tell from Jeff's posts whether this was all discussed/sorted out in advance...

 

If the venue expected the band to do all the promotion and bring in the crowd... and if the band instead expected the venue to handle all that...

 

Two ships passing in the night.

 

-D44

 

 

 

 

[Craig Vecchione]

^this. I don't expect a contract for a bar gig. I don't expect anything from a bar gig, except beer in the monitors, and outlets that don't work.

[Craig Vecchione]

Which led me to wonder "why did they want to hire us in the first place"? So we asked. Apparently the gal who books the band is tired of the same ol' same ol' they bring in for their 'local band' Friday night slot and wants more bands that are better able to play a variety of material rather than just one style all night long and so Googled around for bands and ran across us....

 

I'm fairly convinced that there are a lot of bar owners who seriously believe they can book a band as if it's booking a party like a bar mitzvah. You show up with your friends and the band everyone drinks and eats, and the bar owner kicks back a few hundred to the band....or screws the band outright....and there's their best night of the week.

 

Just like just about every other aspect of modern life and business, there's no thought given to developing the venue as a popular spot, just gimme some money now. Another dumb band will be along next week, and the week after....