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Musical Maturity


Outkaster

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I guess this is the best forum for this question. I sometimes sit in with an open jam or sub for other bands. It amazes me the amount of people are not aware of what they are playing, overplaying, not paying attention to other musicians, not thinking about what they are doing, volume problems, etc. It always seems like these guys talk the most junk also and don’t know anything when it comes down to it. People just don't seem to have any instincts or musicality. How is it regionally for you? Seems like there are a lot of guys like this out there.

 

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The music here is horrible. Reggae and whatever variations ensue or old cover Rock and whatever variations ensue. All by hacks that had to copy the stuff - oar at least tried, in the first place. I'll get up and drum but have learned to keep it generic - or nuttin. It lets the crappy material breathe and doesn't leave anything on the curb for the roaches. Win , win.

Irony is I'm now considered boring and probably untalented. roar :D

 

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Outkaster you are right. And some of the biggest offenders are drummers. (overplaying that is.)

 

I go to see a lot of music in Nashville, and it is surprising how many drummers think you have to put a fill at the end of every 4 bars. (and a Stewart Copeland fill for that matter!)

 

Most band Music Directors (MD's) or lead singers just want a good solid tempo and groove.

 

Lead Guitarist are also a big offender. (darns flame proof vest).

 

 

I think it is important as you mature musically to realize it is about the song, and not about YOUR instrument.

 

D-out

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I sometimes sit in with an open jam or sub for other bands. It amazes me the amount of people are not aware of what they are playing, overplaying, not paying attention to other musicians, not thinking about what they are doing, volume problems, etc. It always seems like these guys talk the most junk also and don’t know anything when it comes down to it. People just don't seem to have any instincts or musicality. How is it regionally for you? Seems like there are a lot of guys like this out there.

Robert Trujillo's "Jaco" documentary had a scene where Weather Report was cutting tracks and Jaco (being brand new) was way too busy. Joe tells him "Hey, you're already IN the band, we KNOW you can play... play for the song now" (my paraphrase). Jaco is considered the best or one of the top 10 best electric bassist ever. and he overplayed always (that "fact" is not helping this thread BTW)........

I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe the real question is why do "music employers" hire players that are way overqualified for the gig. Every country or rock player I know just wants to play their "Scott Henderson" stuff but has to pay the bills by playing radio drool and ends up quitting or miserable. Why not hire guys that actually like the friggin music?

 

Lets switch gears. The average "garage band" drum tom sounds pretty uninspiring (just my opinion). I once got to soundcheck on drums when I was 21 (I'm not even a drummer) in an arena on a well miced kit. Just one tom was inspiring (not my opinion). When that tone springs forth with roundness and girth and reverberates where 19,000 people will be it makes you want to play less.

~garage band = Hawaii Five0 intro

~pro kit on massive PA in massive arena = Journey "Open Arms" fill

Same thing with guitar

~misquito tone = K Hammett all night

~loud thickness w/ definition = E Clapton (if you're lucky)

 

My "local scene" is Nashville. Most of the jams are pretty mature and developed. On the occasion someone decides to "plow through everybody" I don't recall it being a problem (however I also do not frequent the jams).... Even on this forum there is a discrepancy as to if "the standards" should be played true to the "hit recording" or if you "give it your own feel".... when you put 5 players on a stage (in your town or any town) with those differing world views then I'm guessing it sounds like what you're describing.

 

 

 

 

...... then there are the singers

 

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I was playing the local bar with my trio a couple of years ago and the owner sat in for a bit on drums. He's a good player but did not know the material so he simply laid it down and it was great.

 

He played a few songs with us and, when we threw something weird at him, again, he simply laid it down and it was great.

 

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J. Paul - I agree with you.

The funny thing about the Nashville scene is that the majority of the gigs I do (including singer/songwriter stuff) is either a CD or MP3 sent ahead and maybe a half hour rehearsal (if that). It is hard to over play as it goes to what OneLife says above. The guy sitting in wasn't extremely familiar with the tunes, so he played it safe and just laid down a groove.

 

Outkaster, I think some people who gig live get "bored" with playing the same ol' set list. Some even have fallen into "hey, I'm in it for the $100 (if that) I get when we are done." They start to noodle on songs to add a little spice. Doesn't make it right, just is a fact.

 

There are bands throughout history that are known for the complexity with which they play - Dream Theater, Dave Matthews Band (at least Carter B) , RUSH, and the like. But I personally prefer something that just stays in the pocket and takes me into the groove.

 

Just my two pennies.

 

 

D

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See but these clowns can not even do that. I just don't understand why people don't have better developed instincts?....some of these guys have been doing the same thing for years and years also.

 

As you move away from the meccas into the general population, the quality of professional takes a nose dive back to ground level. People at this level play for their spirit and are apathetic and more or less clueless about ensemble values and otherwise general performance values. They lack the basic abilities to even go there.

 

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Noodling drives me crazy unless a guy is trying to work a part out.

 

1001gear - This 'can' be true about moving away from a city = moving away from the culture of professionalism, however, I grew up in rural SC and started playing in a band at the age of 14 called Carolina Country Classics. We played real country music (AKA Pasty Cline, or Rainin' in My Heart) music.

The guy that ran that band was as professional as they come (even though he was a country as a corn cob).

 

We all had to dress in CW shirts with matching bolos, pants a boots. We played square dances, festivals, etc. He taught me a lot about just showing up on time, rehearsal protocol, etc.

 

So, it doesn't always hold true this sentiment about lack of professional culture.

 

Ive also met plenty of "professional jerks" in my day as well in the music circles. You know, the guy who thinks he is much better than he really is and he wants you to know it. He doesn't bend much about band decisions and the like.

 

I have to say, I am a good 2/4 player. Nothing fancy, just hold down the groove, but I have gotten more jobs because I have a good attitude. That has landed me more gigs than my playing ever did.

 

D

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[uSER][/uSER]

 

I mean real meccas. NY, LA, Nashville, and asstd college strongholds. Anyplace else is running on weed alone. You can probably get on the phone and put together a gigworthy bunch and have it running in a week. Not so in most communities. for sure not mine.

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Being in a power trio back in the day was kind of a luxury, because you could get away with overplaying...not a lot was going on otherwise :) Even then, though, I was learning to understand the power of what happened when you laid out because then the "big" parts became just that much bigger.

 

I learned a lot about musical maturity by playing with the drum machine I made back in 1970. Don't laugh. Playing along with those simple grooves required simple parts, my timing got 100% better, and my bass playing improved dramatically because with the drum machine, I was part of a rhythm section.

 

The next big lesson was doing record production. So many musicians overplayed, and they could hear it on playback when pointed out to them.

 

The next big lesson was jamming with DJs. They prioritize when to mute things. If I played when they were subtracting, I looked like an idiot. So I paid real close attention to how the flow was going.

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Oh yeah, no question there's ample people to cover gigs. The peeve with me is a glaring lack of people to work with locally on projects and arrogant as I may come off, on simply good material. Rockers, Reggoids and the general pros don't hear blends or harmonies or any of those musical basics other than on stuff they copied and even then only to the degree they were able to copy it. It's very saddening to me.

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personally i believe the idea about the ability or inability of an artist being based upon geographic location to be ludicrous. thats almost as asinine as equating fame and popular status to levels of competency on any particular instrument. pick one, its still silly... rather it makes more sense that mono instrumentalist have less of a knowledge base from which to draw as compared to say someone that has played most or all the other instruments... ,from a hack standpoint, drumz is eezy... an artist knows better...

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Being in a power trio back in the day was kind of a luxury' date=' because you could get away with overplaying...not a lot was going on otherwise :) Even then, though, I was learning to understand the power of what happened when you laid out because then the "big" parts became just that much bigger...[/quote']

 

Something I like to do in a three piece is use space as the "fourth piece" as well as using it to make the bits we do play really stand out.

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wheeling, west virginia is definitely NOT a major musical mecca. there was radio station that had some of the nashville greats come through and i knew the lead guitarist,of the house ban, his name was ray g.

through ray, i met some pretty good players, chet atkins... roy clark, les paul, count basie, maynard furguson, buddy rich, i could go on but i think you get the idea... now ray was a humanitarian sort of guy, his son was killed in a coal mine and had supposedly been doing the speed to stay up downs, to sleep so you could work and retain rock guitarist god status in a small, no talent town, far from the real musicians in new yark or lost angeles... anyway, ray took in musician druggies that seriusly wanted to get clean and tried to get them on the right track. enter this one fella that was pianist, coronet player.. drigged out, alcohol soaked but wanting clean so ray told him he would take him in but he had to learn guitar. dude said yeah and about a year and a half later chet atkins was sitting in rays living room making a deal with this no talent, small town closet guitar pickin hillbilly from nowhere,west by god, virginia,,to come live with him, and for three years record only in chets home studio... allowing chet to pick his brain for those three years... but what the hell does chet atkins know about guitar talent? i bow to the superior judgment of the poasters in this thread...

:leggomyego facepalm:

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personally i believe the idea about the ability or inability of an artist being based upon geographic location to be ludicrous. thats almost as asinine as equating fame and popular status to levels of competency on any particular instrument. pick one' date=' its still silly... rather it makes more sense that mono instrumentalist have less of a knowledge base from which to draw as compared to say someone that has played most or all the other instruments... ,from a hack standpoint, drumz is eezy... an artist knows better...[/quote']

 

Ah, but it is geographic if only because culture is geographic. For instance if you live in the NW where good weed is prevalent, anything that goes in your ear might be good enough. Even Santana. If you live in Jamaica, maybe only the weed lol.

 

Anyway good players can occur anywhere. Doesn't make anywhere fertile ground. And FTR drumming and music at any level of competence is not easy. Artwits sic. I'm not so sure.

 

You mining town (mentioned elsewhere) good on that guy. Humanitarians are everywhere. Good on you for knowing about it. These exceptions do not make the rule. Never have.

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See my post #11 above.

 

It's still geographic though. If you start on a project it won't take miracles to get industry grade results. As far as pro jerks, I imagine they exist. Me, I'm not a pro - (see aforementioned obstacles) and I'm not that good and don't much care about the consensus of ignorants.

 

Where I won't back off is that the general music product is decoration and functionally, a cheap ointment for the masses and then get your ass back to the mill on Monday.

 

I consider music to be very unlike that and a very detailed craft and will continue to practice it and expound its virtues as such.

 

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Thanks for the replies. I know some guys locally struggling with otherwise pretty good guys in bands with the same problem. Some musicians don't understand their not in a band by themselves. Life is just not like that. Things don't happen on your own terms.

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