Band Members/Your Friends

[Outkaster]

Lately I have had he epiphany if you will, that it is very hard to juggle being friends with band members and be their “boss” at the same time. I think recently, within the last year I might have overstepped my bounds and let a couple people get away with things they shouldn’t be able to do. Nothing to serious, missing practice or being lenient when someone didn’t work on a tune or something. I was trying to be flexible to people’s lives. What I have learned though is that it can get messy with boundaries because then certain people might expect certain favors or treatment based on how close they are to me. We have two women in the band, thank god no one is after or sleeping with, and it’s professional so that is a good thing. Even with that I still have to treat them a little differently than the guys so it’s a juggling act. Some of you might recall I run a 6 piece band with two support staff. The guitarist co-manages the band with me but even then I still have to make the tough decisions. Anyone of you that has been in my position knows it is not easy, if I let it be democratically run too many things don’t get done.

 

I think it is like a working relationship like anything else and lately for me it’s been easier to step back and not be accessible to people’s problems. I know it sounds a bit cold but it’s a tough position to be put into, musicians have drama. I like everyone well enough and everyone gets along very well. We are gigging quite a bit this summer, selling merchandise and making people happy. I also realize a few of you are in bands with your friends but it seems at a point it doesn’t always work.

 

[StratGuy22]

We are all pretty chill. Everyone has lives etc. our drummer has 2 younger kids (grade school) the others have late teen/adult children as well. We gig as we can, when the stars align and it all comes together. We don't hang out a lot since our singer lives 2.5 hours away and our keyboard player lives 1.5 hours away.

 

 

 

Our bass player and myself work at the same plant on the same shift so we hang out a bit here and there at work when we can. We also get a bite maybe once a week. Other than that we don't really see the rest except at gigs. But it works out. We've been at it 7 years now with the same lineup.

[SpaceNorman]

I suspect my sentiments on this topic may already be known. Every one of the groups I work with are "run democratically". I can't imagine any of my bandmates (all of whom are 50+ years old, with families and professional day gigs) being part of a band that wasn't "run democratically". Each of us clearly wants to be involved - and therefore make time to be available for rehearsals. There's nobody telling the band there's a mandatory rehearsal on _____day. There's nobody that can realistically make that call. We're all adults who have outside responsibilities and commitments that must be fulfilled - regardless of what any band leader declares. Instead, we make it work by negotiating to find days that will work best for us. We're pretty good about finding 'em - but, there are times when we simply can't find a day that works, or that mean we rehearse a member or two short. Our only expectation of each other in this regard is that once we each agree on a date - we all show up.

 

Work on a tune? We all know what it's like to not be able to squeeze prep time into the schedule. None of the folks I work with make a habit of it. So when it does happen - it gets chaulked up under the "{censored} happens" heading and we move on.

 

Females in the band? Yep ... I work with one. She's as pro as they come. Band members who have some physical limitations that prevent them from being "heavy lifters" during setup and teardown? Yep, we're in our 50s ... we've got a couple of guys that have limitations. As long as folks are obviously trying to contribute to the effort - those of us that can schlepp don't mind a bit.

 

Both of my projects have longevity. My Superstars project has been in existence for more than 15 years ... at 6 years with the group, I'm the "new kid". My Soul'd Out project has been together for going on 5 years ... and have only had two turnovers in all that time (one of which was the recent passing of our trumpet player).

 

Neither I or any of the folks I work with would even consider sticking with a group where there was somebody telling us how the railroad was going to run. We're grown ups who recognize that our collective success requires give and take from all of us. We each give when we can ... and take when we must.

[StratGuy22]

Good stuff. We have a girl in our band. She definitely pulls her weight and helps out where she can. Setup always depends on who is around. We usually have the luxury or setting up the day before. Often it will be just the bass player and I, the drummer will help if he can. Sometimes we just let him know when he can come set up his drums. As far as I'm concerned, our singer making the 2.5 hour drive is his share.

 

 

 

If anything we get everything loaded in, the truss up & hang the lights together. Then I get the bass player to do things like attach the safety cables, connect the power & DMX lines while I work on the rest of the PA. Once the lights are up we give the drummer a call to come set up his kit while we finish up the rest. Then we will sound check his drums, bass & my guitar. We will mess around and jam for 1/2 hour to ab hour for fun and run through some songs.

 

 

 

Then in the next day key & our singer will roll in and we will do a quick sound check with them as well. We usually play the same halls in town, and we have scenes for each one so the actual sound check goes pretty fast. Might have to tweak a monitor mix a bit, and adjust something a bit on the fly. We played a new hall in another town, so I chose a similar scene for a local hall about the same size. Our bass players wife was there, and she was surprised at how quickly we dialed in the mix. We use Some Kind of Wonderful as the first song, me out front with an iPad. By the time we got to the lead, I was on stage with the band playing my lead, good to go.

 

 

 

We play the gig and then I get the everyone helping to tear down. Get a couple guys on the lights, I pull the cables and have someone stretch them out on the floor (I'm the one that does them up, over/under) after we do as much as we can everyone cabs it home. The next morning we all meet for breakfast at one of the restaurants. Then we head to the venue. We will usually send our singer & keyboard player on their way, especially in the winter so they can get home safe in the daylight, again they've helped out the night before and I cinsider driving to be their share of the workload. I'll go in the trailer and call the pack. The drummer & bass player will wheel the gear over and I put everything in place. Then we are done and we all head out.

 

 

 

The whole time we are talking about this & that, talking about the gig & how it went etc etc. we have fun when we play and enjoy each other's company. It's a good time and I always like hanging out with the guys in the band. It's good that we all get along, there's no drama, everyone's spouses get along etc. Our keyboard players husband is a really good guy, sometimes he can make the gig, sometimes not. If he does then we get him up for a few songs:

 

 

 

Jackson (duet with our keyboard player)

 

Folsom Prison Blues

 

Sweet Caroline

 

 

 

Always a good time. Since we mix from the stage, he's got a good set of ears and can let us know if we need a bit more of this or that during the gig. Life is just so much better when everyone gets along.

[Vito Corleone]

Every band and every situation is going to be different. The trick to good band and business management is to find the sweet spot that works between being fully democratic and being a dictatorship.

 

With any business that has only 5 or 6 employees you have to give everyone much more a sense of involvement in the running of things than do in a business with 100 employees. A band is no different.

 

My M.O. for running bands is that everyone gives 100% and everyone gets an equal cut of the proceeds. But as the bandleader, I have to understand that everyone has different strengths and weaknesses and not everyone's "100%" is going to be the same. I don't expect our shy guitarist to help hustle up gigs. But he's a professional handyman so he's great at keeping the equipment maintained. My drummer has a great ear for arrangements so he's my co "musical director" but he has zero technical skills, so I wouldn't think of asking him to help out with the website. Etc. Play to peoples strengths and then they feel like they are making a real contribution (because they are) and you'll get more of that 100% out of them.

 

Of course, the business model where you're the dictator/band leader and everyone is simply a hired-gun works too. A lot of bands do this. But expect a high turnover rate, using a lot of fill-ins, etc. Nothing wrong with that, but just know that's what you're gonna be working with.

 

We also take the attitude of knowing that we all have other things going on in our lives so rehearsals have to be made around everyone's schedule and that there will be times when someone can't make a load in because of a work or family issue. That's fine with everyone as long no one starts taking advantage of it. It's no problem pitching in and covering for someone as long as we all feel like everyone is putting in their version of 100%. And, most importantly, putting in 100% once we all get up on stage.

 

A band is a business and needs to be run as such to be successful. But what too many people don't understand is that the key to most successful businesses is that there be a big sense of 'family' for the employees and that they feel respected and valued by their employers. Create a harmonious workplace at rehearsal and gigs where everyone wants to be and you'll have a band that lasts as long as you want it.

 

[Vito Corleone]

If we have a really easy load in, we can get the whole rig set up in under an hour. But since most involve long hallways, stairs, elevators, sidewalks, etc, we figure it will always take two hours. So we ask for three hours in our contracts so we have some time in case there are any technical problems and time to change clothes, etc before showtime.

 

There is usually a set "be there at X:00" time where the trailer will be at the door, everyone is expected to be there, and everyone pitches in with unloading the trailer and moving the gear inside. Since most everything is in nice big wheeled trunks and such these days, it's not a big physical event. The girls are expected to help with this as well. They can push a trunk down a hallway as easily as I can. One of them usually brings her big muscle-ly boyfriend. And he helps out so much that we've taken to throwing him $100 for his roadie efforts when he's along.

 

Once we get inside, the soundguy takes care of the FOH (our two regular sound techs prefer to use their own gear anyway so we let them) and everyone else gets busy setting up their own gear. The girls set up the lights and the bassist and guitarist help out as their personal rigs are pretty simple. The drummer and I have much more complex set ups so we are both usually involved with that.

 

If there are any 'satellite' systems that need to be set up for cocktail sets or providing mics for wedding ceremonies and such, then whoever isn't over-burdened with whatever else they are doing usually jumps in and sets that stuff up.

 

A lot of effort and expense has been taken towards making sure everything is as simple and easy as possible. Nobody likes to spend a bunch of time and effort moving heavy gear. We try to have the lightest stuff we can and rig it so it goes up and down as easily as can be.

 

Sound checks can't always happen. Whether it's a wedding or some other private event, people are often having cocktails or dinner in the same room (or the next one over) by the time we're ready to sound check. But our sound techs are good at dialing it in quick and set openers are chosen specifically as songs that are well suited for sound check.

[Outkaster]

Well the topic kind of sidelined into load ins and load outs but just for the record it’s not really a dictatorship but in order to play to people’s strengths I have to make some decisions, they are not always popular. I am sensitive to people’s lives but at the end of the day it’s a business and I have to run it. I have a couple of older guys that have been playing for 40 years but have nothing really to show for it. We have had some regional success and our name is getting out there so it’s a good thing. It’s taken these guys a long time to learn that if you put in the work things happen. It’s a foreign concept to them.

 

Guido we don’t use subs, we almost couldn’t with the way things are arranged, so far so good. The girls in the band will help with stuff but due to how small they are there is only so much PA gear we can load.

 

[Vito Corleone]

Well the topic kind of sidelined into load ins and load outs but just for the record it’s not really a dictatorship but in order to play to people’s strengths I have to make some decisions' date=' they are not always popular. I am sensitive to people’s lives but at the end of the day it’s a business and I have to run it. I have a couple of older guys that have been playing for 40 years but have nothing really to show for it. We have had some regional success and our name is getting out there so it’s a good thing. It’s taken these guys a long time to learn that if you put in the work things happen. It’s a foreign concept to them. [/quote']

 

Like with pretty much anything else in life, you only get out of a band what you're willing to put into it.

 

If you have guys who (for example) think they can put in the effort needed to be in a $300 a night band and get $3000 gigs, then they are just clueless. Being in a really good band is hard work. It's not just play. And if they haven't learned that in 40 years of playing....well.....good luck teaching them now.

 

If, on the other hand, you've got guys who don't want to put in much effort and don't expect big results and are just in it for a bit of fun---then trying to push them into doing more so it can be the type of band that YOU want it to be isn't really going to work either. You need to be working with people who are pretty much on the same page with you as far as what they want out of it and what they expect the band to be. Otherwise, at best you'll have some guys willing to go along with your plan for the ride because they like the bigger paychecks or whatnot, but if they really don't care that much, that's only going to leave you perpetually frustrated. Because they'll be more than happy to let YOU do all the work.

 

 

 

Guido we don’t use subs, we almost couldn’t with the way things are arranged, so far so good. The girls in the band will help with stuff but due to how small they are there is only so much PA gear we can load.

 

Yeah, we can't do subs either due to our musical arrangements. We do have a former singer who has filled in for us a couple of times but even doing that means pretty much rolling back the setlist to what we were doing when she was in the band full time. Better than turning down a gig, but far from ideal.

 

 

[Outkaster]

It is hard to get buy in and get people to commit. You can only hold people accountable so much, especially when you can only pay them so much. They have to believe in the band, the mission and most of all the music they are playing. Without that you don't have anything. If you have one guy that is a little lazy amongst 8 people you can kind of absorb it. If its two or three it becomes a problem.

[Vito Corleone]

It can be difficult to treat everyone equally and fairly sometimes. Or appear that you are. Why is it that the guy I have to constantly keep on because he's always 1/2 hour late for rehearsal will be the first one to stand up and complain that "why don't you get on HIS case about being late the way you do with me?" because he's upset that I didn't really say anything to the guy who was late only once this year?

 

For some reason, "because YOU'RE late ALL THE TIME and he ISN'T" doesn't seem to suffice as a "fair" response to him. To him, apparently, I either should be 100% unrelentingly strict about being late for rehearsal or never say anything to anyone about being late ever.

 

"Herding cats" is a pretty apt description of what running is band is all about.

 

 

[StratGuy22]

We don't generally use subs. We've had a drummer sub and a bass sub a couple times. But it's been a couple years. I'm half debating using a sub for our keyboard player. She can't make some gigs. It's always better with her there, just more material we can cover, fuller sound. My friends wife might be able to do it. Don't really want to ruffle any feathers though.

 

 

 

Women can be interesting and finicky creatures lol

[Vito Corleone]

I've found the best way to deal with women in a band is to treat them like the guys for the most part. As soon as you start allowing too many exceptions "because she's a girl", then they often start to take advantage of it and others start to become resentful.

 

In my band the deal is "equal pay for equal work". Everyone pitches in with load in/set up and tear down/load out. The girls are basically in charge of dealing with the lighting. And wrapping a buttload of cables. But, of course, they'd rather not.

 

One time a year or so ago they really started complaining to me that they don't like doing it, and that they'd rather just show up at sound check, get on stage and sing, and go home. That's that what most female vocalists do in other bands similar to ours.

 

I informed them first that I'd like that deal as well. That none of us LIKE setting up and tearing down. That I'd love nothing more than just walking up on stage in time for sound check and heading straight to the hotel after the last note was played. But, that if they really wanted that sort of situation, that I could look for a guy or two that I could hire who would set up and tear down the lights and help with load in and load out, but that it would mean they would get paid $100-$150 less each per gig. That in those "other bands" yes, the girls don't do as much work, but that they also don't get paid as much either. That in those "other bands", that the bandleader is generally paying everyone a couple hundred a night and keeping the rest for himself.

 

Suddenly, when faced with the prospect of making less money, setting up and tearing down the lights didn't seem like so much work....

[Outkaster]

In my case if I treat them like a guy it actually works opposite. They say they want to be treated like on one of the guys but in actuality they want to be treated like you would treat girls. It’s interesting women in the band are no different but as I said you have to watch how you treat them. The approach for me backfired when I let them get away with a few things. Our guitarists expresses frustration all the time but one of them is my other keyboard player so she has to set up a small rig, mic, and a stand for a flute she uses. Even with rehearsal last night I realized some of the people in the band are just not friends. I feel like an employer more as time goes on because I see people are a lot of talk and as Guido said often the first ones to complain. Especially the ones that do the least work. Our bass player for example would rather sideline this band and try to get stuff started on the side, all of which never materialize. I caught him before practice Monday night telling a trumpet player on the side of his car about his "solo material" and "we can form something on the side" He didn't realize I was listening.

 

That's what I mean, people have to want to do what they are doing and play the music they are playing. This bass player is not being honest with himself and along for the ride and it's coming to the surface. If he likes playing soul and R&B he should be doing that, not play with us because it's "better than nothing" Sorry I don't trust many musicians.....it's too bad because I want to. Maybe that is why I started the thread.

[Vito Corleone]

 

That's what I mean, people have to want to do what they are doing and play the music they are playing.

 

 

This, of course. The responsibility of the bandleader is, to the degree possible, provide something that they want to do.

 

Money is the most simple answer. Pay people well enough and they will be happy doing most anything and, if not, you can easily find others who will. But money is also the most difficult thing to provide many times.

 

It obviously becomes much trickier with bands that aren't making a lot of money. When you're young, you can hold the band together with the promise that "we're going somewhere". That there will be a big payday or other reward at the end of the ride if everyone just commits to the idea enough.

 

But when the band members are all older and money really isn't the driving factor? Then it becomes much more about enjoying the music and the band experience. And it's hard to find people who all enjoy the same thing and gets harder the more members you add to the mix. Getting them all to agree on the songlist or the type of gigs you play can be next to impossible. So yeah....you end up with guys who are only in it until something better comes along or because it's 'better than nothing'.

 

Maybe do more to foster more friendship within the band. Have everyone over for a BBQ that doesn't necessarily involve practicing. Get people enjoying hanging out together more.

 

[wesg]

Some people really seem to have a need to be best friends with band mates. I don't know why that is...these are also the same guys that get offended when they find out you are performing with other acts. I like being friends with everyone, but it's not necessary. As long as there is no major clashing and you can do your job, I will work with you. But if you're going to get pissy because I'm working with other acts....too bad. If you want me to quit those acts, fill my calendar with high-paying gigs!

 

In the "big bands" I work with, it's completely different. You don't even know who your co-workers are half the time; I am in one band where I actually don't know everybody's name. It's also not that unusual to show up at a rehearsal or gig and find several chairs filled by subs. Those bands are completely managed by the band leader. The two band leaders I work with most frequently are octogenarians. Maybe that has something to do with it. Everything is well-planned, rehearsals even often have set lists. You sit down, you play the charts you get handed, you give 'em back and you go home.

 

The last gig I did with my rock band was pretty great. It was at a campground about an hour from home, in the middle of nowhere, with a 7pm show time. The bass player's wife called me up about dinner plans (she's a planner) - she brought a barbeque and some chicken, somebody brought salad, somebody brought chips and dip, somebody brought veggies, I made a cheesecake and bacon jalapeno poppers (which were a real hit!)...we actually had a really nice time. The "band wives" had a good time, too, it was the first time we'd all socialized as a group, I hope we get that gig again next year.

 

 

 

Wes

[Vito Corleone]

That's what I mean, people have to want to do what they are doing and play the music they are playing.

 

A few more thoughts on this. This problem seems to be as old as time itself. Seems there are always going to be people in the band who "can't stand" this song or that one. It's probably not actually possible to put together a list of 40 songs that 6 different musicians all love playing.

 

I think the best you can do is find people who all agree on the 'why' of what you're playing, even if not always exactly on the 'what' or the 'how'. For me, a song I enjoy performing is just about any song that A) we play well and B) the audience obviously really enjoys (either through attention, applause, dancing or hopefully all three). I am pretty sure everyone else in my band would tell you the same thing. Hence, we all get along musically.

 

Once you have that, then the enjoyment you get from playing your part well and grooving with the other musicians is going to be just about the same for any song regardless of genre or complexity.

 

Of course, there will always be a couple of songs on the list that someone or another would really rather not be doing, but as long as you can keep those 'grin and bear it' moments to a minimum, they usually fly by pretty quickly. And if a majority of members are hating a song, then it's probably time to find something else.

 

But if you've got members who, no matter HOW well the material is being played and going over with the crowd, simply just can't stomach playing, well then maybe they are in the wrong band.

 

[Outkaster]

In the bass players case I think he is isn't honest with himself and is a long for the ride. That's OK but you still have to do a job when it comes down to it.

[Vito Corleone]

In the bass players case I think he is isn't honest with himself and is a long for the ride. That's OK but you still have to do a job when it comes down to it.

 

 

Then treat him as such. I would give even less leeway to the "along for the ride" guys than those whose hearts are in the project.

 

Bass players are a dime a dozen anyway.

 

As I like to remind my bass player:

 

Q: How many bass players does it take to change a light bulb?

A: Zero. The keyboard player can do it with his left hand.

[SpaceNorman]

I've found the best way to deal with women in a band is to treat them like the guys for the most part. As soon as you start allowing too many exceptions "because she's a girl"' date=' then they often start to take advantage of it and others start to become resentful.[/quote']

 

With the exception of a single group (my Superstars of Rock project) - every other band I've been in that's had any longevity (my college band (4 years), Rhythm 21 (8 years) and now Soul'd Out (4+ years)) - has had a female vocalist. My male band mates and I have pretty much made our peace with the fact that our female vocalists' strengths have not been their ability to help with schlepping and setup. None of us want any help with setting up our own instrument rigs ... nor do the owners of the PA and/or lights typically want any help with setup or tear down (other than lifting) of those "shared" resources. Truth is, I've come to view setting up, tearing down and schlepping gear as being analogous with having a workout partner at the gym ... I don't particularly want women in the middle of that if I'm really working to get things done.

 

If our female vocalist respects the timetable for arrive time/sound check time that the guys decides works best for us - without grousing about having to be there too early. ... and hangs out at the end of the night to socialize with customers (deflecting those interruptions from us so that we can get torn down and loaded out), maybe help with door and/or pulling "security watch" on the vehicles while the "ant line" of guys are in and out of the building moving gear - we're happy. The only time I've had any heartburn was with a female vocalist who felt I should stop working on tear down to pay folks so she could leave. I had to explain that we ALL get paid at the end of the gig ... and that the gig ain't over till the van doors close.

 

[Vito Corleone]

I always end up speaking too soon in this forum. Or it has a way a jinxing me. No sooner do I talk about not using subs than I get a call last Wednesday that our guitarist is in the hospital with a spinal infection and won't be able to do the gig coming up on Saturday.

 

Things seem to have a way of working out though. Luckily, the gig was for a 60th birthday party for some dude that owns a winery in Sonoma and therefore there is nothing on the set list newer than 80s material. ("Love Shack" was probably the most 'current' song we played.) So it's a pretty easy sit-in gig for an old friend of mine who I know to be an excellent guitarist. We end up doing mostly just a lot of classic rock and disco standards anyway.

 

Plus, a scheduled 45-min set of background instrumental music while they are having dinner ends up running closer to 2 hours. The sub guitarist is MUCH better at improvising through such material than our regular guitarist would have been. So it ends up going quite nicely in that regard.

 

All seems to be back to normal for this week's gig though.

[TimothyZelinski]

I think its important that the group starts as a totally professional thing. I'm good friends with my band mates now that we've been through plenty but when we started we didn't know each other that well so the professional "hat" is the first one we put on when we get together. After that we can strengthen the band relationship with our occasional shenanigans but that only happens after the work is finished.

[Outkaster]

"only happens after the work is finished"

 

That's the key right there and where people can get confused.

[Outkaster]

I think its important that the group starts as a totally professional thing. I'm good friends with my band mates now that we've been through plenty but when we started we didn't know each other that well so the professional "hat" is the first one we put on when we get together. After that we can strengthen the band relationship with our occasional shenanigans but that only happens after the work is finished.

 

I think this goes a long with what Pat said in the other thread that when you have two kinds of musicians in the band for different reasons that is where problems start.