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Thinking about "sounds"


TrickyBoy

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I was reading Jeff's post about the XBox drum module (just picking on you) he got and it got me thinking, how important is "your sound" to what you do. Personally, I'm WAY simplifying. I have a tone for my Gretsch and a tone for my Strat. Bass player has a single tone he uses for everything. Drummer plays acoustic drums. Sonically, very little changes throughout the night. We're amazingly minimalistic. How does everyone else approach this?

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Have my own favorite settings for the organ. (Never use vibrato but do use the Roland rotary sound or an actual Leslie.) And for Piano, I usually use a rhodes sound or acoustic piano. There's a lot more available, but I rarely use it except for specific songs.

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I basically have five sounds that I cycle through. A lush reverby clean sound, a crisp clean sound, an aggressive Marshall-like driven sound, a crunchy overdrive sound, and an 80's pop metal guitar sound.

 

I use a Line 6 Pod HD so actually I have somewhere around 60 sounds loaded on it. But for 90% of the setlist, I am using one of the above 5 sounds.

 

Drums are acoustic but he uses a drum pad trigger to insert a variety of sounds and thumps and samples. Bassist has a set it and forget it sound that is consistent all night.

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My main band is a 3-piece, and I'm the sole guitarist/singer, so simpler is better. I have 3 main tones essentially: Clean, light OD (from a Timmy clone) and distortion (from amp). I use a Line 6 M9 for a variety of delays/mods/verbs, and have a boost for solos and a wah for songs that require it. That's pretty much it. I don't change anything from guitar to guitar.

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I have some tones I like to stick with but I also try to copy tones if I think they are important. Just things like using chorus on 80's stuff or getting close to a David Gilmour tone for soloing in The Wall. I also like to play with effects a bit. For instance we do Life During Wartime by the Talking Heads and I do a wacky solo switching in and out of some extreme flanging and phasing. I also throw in a bit of reverse delay now and then. Makes it more fun for me to play around with sounds. I will also go with slapback delay on songs thea require it: Best Friends Girl, anything rockabillyish.

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For Gwen’s stuff I use 2 basic tones (like everyone else in town) and use them with delay/verb, with a slap, with a leslie, and straight verb, as well as dry.

I like how some guys can navigate a night with just a couple of tones and mainly rely on their playing and dynamics and be great. Some of these guys aren’t getting paid enough to bring their “A” rig and the rest are just lazy. So yes, the sounds, to me, are a big deal because for the other acts I play with I have :

~ a crystal clean ballad tone

~ a class “A” vox tone

~ 70s Marshall

~ 80s Marshall

~ Mesa Triple Rectifier

tones…. and that covers everything except for the occasional Sonic Youth or art rock thing (which no one is hiring me for anyway). It would be nice to have a Stevie type Fender thing but I wouldn’t use it most of the time except for HIS songs. I have an M5 pre distortion and an M5 post distortion as well as a Time Factor, so everything (including ways and whammy, harmonizers, ….) is covered effects wise.

 

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It’s annoying when I go way out of my way to cover all the bases and the drummer doesn’t have a pad or trigger for handclaps and samples and the bass player doesn’t have a synth pedal or distortion. It’s not 1971. “Secret Agent Man” isn’t state of the art anymore… (yes I KNOW that wasn’t in 1971). Some of those things can be the difference between a $600 band and a $6000 band.

 

 

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I've spent countless hours scrolling through presets and often using the (sometimes klunky or buggy) editing software to get the sounds I need for the stuff this band covers. Everything from current pop hits (Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Kei$ha, Lady Gaga, Bruno Mars, etc.), current country ( Band Perry, Carrie Underwood, Big & Rich, etc.) to some 80's pop and hard rock synth stuff (Eurythmics, Journey, Bon Jovi, Loverboy, etc.) with a couple disco/rap medleys ( Brickhouse, Sugarhill Gang, Love Rollercoaster, Funky Music White Boy, Good Times, etc.).

 

I've got three keyboards (88 key Korg TR, 61 key Roland XP-30 and 49 key M-Audio Venom) that on some songs I use all three and/or often times keyboard splits. Once I get sounds dialed in on these boards then I double each one with a sound from a rack mount Roland Fantom XR.

 

Yeah I've been doing a lot of work with Sounds and sometimes it just about drives me nuts but I have to stop and remember that this band has been a real good opportunity for me that I couldn't pass up and when I get to playing some of these songs with these big fat ass patches it is a really outta sight feeling man!

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I use many sounds. Keys. I play pretty much all vst synths/samplers. I use Cantabile and I can change all my vsts and my Fusion at once, so almost every song has a unique sound set (subsession). And I have a vocoder integrated into my setup as well, still perfecting that. I have a base piano , imperfect samples Steinberg grand, and a dedicated horns sample set, Big Fish audio First Call horns. But mostly I'm all over the place.

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I've been chasing tone for a few years now, and finally found mostly what I was looking for by way of the line 6 HD pro X rack system. It's ability to react to pick attack like a real tube amp is impressive, if not perfect, and the range of tones and effects are almost limitless.

 

Of course I found a couple of "go-to" tones that I use almost exclusively for gigging, but I've been spending more and more time shaping new tones and finding what speaks to my style. I'm into a lot of trippy type solos, so delay, synth, etc.. bring it on.

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I think that most bands and musicians---even those that use a wide variety of sounds---still end up having a core "sound" that is just inherent to who they are.

 

Because of the wide variety of material we cover, I probably use as many different sounds and patches as any keyboard player out there, yet I still find there's a certain similarity to most of my patches. Rather than try to nail a patch 100% exactly, I find that I end up tweaking patches in a manner that is more "suggestive" of the original patch than anything else.

 

I learned many years ago that it's more about what you do with the patch than anything else, anyway. I would so often get compliments for "nailing" a patch (usually from other musicians and keyboard players) that I knew actually didn't sound much like the original at all that I soon figured out it has more to do with how well you play the part and how well the band plays the song than it does nailing the patch. At least in a live setting.

 

My guitarist, who plays a Korg pedal/processor thingy through a small amp, is pretty good about nailing what he thinks are "signature" sounds but seems to have a couple of core "go to" patches as well. But again, it's more about that he nails playing the parts correctly, I think.

 

I agree with what ggm1960 says about patches though. It's fun as hell to play some of the big fat ass patches on the modern pop tunes and really just carry and drive the song with them in the way a guitarist does on traditional rock stuff.

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I'm a piano and organ guy, keeping it simple as possible with only a handful of basic sounds- B3, Rhodes, Wurlitzer, Clavinet, acoustic piano. But I'm pretty picky about those basic sounds. For organ I play a Hammond SK1 through a Neo Ventilator Leslie effect pedal. The SK1 covers the other sounds very well also, it's acoustic piano being a pleasant surprise for how well it works FOH. I prefer to have a 2-keyboard setup (Yamaha piano on the bottom) but with the 7-piece band I have recently joined, that's an impossibility on most of the stages we play. So I set up the tiny SK by itself and have adapted quickly to it, having a (surprisingly) great time in the process.

 

My other concession to sound is using a Radial Duplex DI with its Jenson transformer. I like to think that it makes for a better, less digital and harsh FOH sound but with my trashed ears, am not entirely sure of that. At any rate, it impresses the sound man lol.

 

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Patches can be a funny thing and, of course, what sounds great through headphones doesn't always work well in a live band situation.

 

Years ago, when the band first started playing "Don't Stop Believin'", I took a stock piano patch it liked, 'thinned" it out a bit, added some chorus to it, and voila! I had the DSB piano patch. Or at least it sounded just like it to me. And the guys in the band. And certainly everyone in the crowd seemed to like it.

 

Fast forward to a few months back and I bought a new keyboard (Yamaha MOXF8) with a stock patch called "Journey" and apparently it's supposed to be the DSB patch but dang....it sounds so thin! Almost like a toy keyboard. So I compare it to the Journey recording and...whaddya know...it's pretty much the Journey patch exactly.

 

But....I just can't use it. I'm too used to the other one. I tried it once and it doesn't fill the room at the beginning of the song the way the old one did and the band is looking at me like "WTF??"

 

I guess my point is that it is easy to be too anal about trying to recreate sounds "just like the record". It's more important to have sounds that work for you and work for the band and the arrangement you're doing. And it isn't like anyone is going to be A/Bing your patches anyway.

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The realities of live performance generally mean that no matter what gear you have, your performance is not really going to sound like the record (unless it's all electronic anyway). If nothing else, live drums will never sound like heavily-processed studio drums, and that changes how they interact with all the other instruments; then of course there's the effect of the performance space on how the band sounds.

 

Consequently, I think that trying to precisely nail the sound of a record quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns. I think it's effective and efficient to get in the ballpark---when it comes to recreating a record, I think it's far more important to spend effort nailing the arrangement than it is to try to nail a particular guitar, bass, or keyboard sound. Your singer is not going to sound exactly like everybody you cover, so you're already compromising on arguably the most important "sound" issue of them all.

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Consequently, I think that trying to precisely nail the sound of a record quickly reaches a point of diminishing returns. I think it's effective and efficient to get in the ballpark---when it comes to recreating a record, I think it's far more important to spend effort nailing the arrangement than it is to try to nail a particular guitar, bass, or keyboard sound. Your singer is not going to sound exactly like everybody you cover, so you're already compromising on arguably the most important "sound" issue of them all.

 

I love this

 

I guess my point is that it is easy to be too anal about trying to recreate sounds "just like the record". It's more important to have sounds that work for you and work for the band and the arrangement you're doing. And it isn't like anyone is going to be A/Bing your patches anyway.

 

I love this too

 

I might ad that (in contrast to my previous post) there is nothing wrong with great players using their one great tone playing (and singing) in the pocket and being a great unit reproducing all the hits all night long and NOT reproducing all the bells and whilstles. Audiences really just wanna groove and "hear their song"

 

Years ago' date=' when the band first started playing "Don't Stop Believin'", I took a stock piano patch it liked, 'thinned" it out a bit, added some chorus to it, and voila! I had the DSB piano patch. Or at least it sounded just like it to me. And the guys in the band. And certainly everyone in the crowd seemed to like it. Fast forward to a few months back and I bought a new keyboard (Yamaha MOXF8) with a stock patch called "Journey" and apparently it's supposed to be the DSB patch but dang....it sounds so thin! Almost like a toy keyboard. So I compare it to the Journey recording and...whaddya know...it's pretty much the Journey patch exactly..... [/quote'] .

I've done that with guitar before.... the sound of the instrument with the sound of that mic, with the sound of that console, with the elements of the mix and the mastering are (by the time it's released) NOT the original sound of the instrument..... therefore reproducing that only to have it go through even MORE processing (your DI board and channel eq and FOH eq) is raped and mutated even more than what the original sound was supposed to be....... a few years back Jonathan Cain was selling that piece (on Nashville Craigslist through his tech) and I happen to run into him at Guitar Center the week it was listed (his studio is in the neighborhood across the street). I said hello and asked about it but just really wanted to scream "don't sell it man !!!!.... it's American history!!!"

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So I've been spending a lot of time doing what I really don't enjoy... Tweaking my tone. And I think I have it pretty close to where I want it. I have a line 6 POD HD 500. Basically, I've got it to where I use 4 presets. Two for each guitar (I switch between a hollow body gretsch and a strat). Then I have the ability to turn on and off different effects with each preset. The gretsch, I pretty much use 1 stock tone, then I have 2 different distortions and 2 different delays that I can add. For the strat, again 1 stock tone, then add 2 different distortions, a delay and a chorus. Then for the strat I have a "solo" tone. For the Gretsch, I have a cleaner preset that I use to emulate acoustic stuff. And that's it.

 

Honestly, I do think the time I've spent has made the band sound better as a whole, so it was well worth it.

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So I've been spending a lot of time doing what I really don't enjoy... Tweaking my tone. And I think I have it pretty close to where I want it. I have a line 6 POD HD 500. Basically, I've got it to where I use 4 presets. Two for each guitar (I switch between a hollow body gretsch and a strat). Then I have the ability to turn on and off different effects with each preset. The gretsch, I pretty much use 1 stock tone, then I have 2 different distortions and 2 different delays that I can add. For the strat, again 1 stock tone, then add 2 different distortions, a delay and a chorus. Then for the strat I have a "solo" tone. For the Gretsch, I have a cleaner preset that I use to emulate acoustic stuff. And that's it.

 

Honestly, I do think the time I've spent has made the band sound better as a whole, so it was well worth it.

 

I have the same piece of equipment, and it's the most frustrating and the most satisfying effort I put into my rig.

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I am very focused on sounds. have been for years. Played in stereo since the late 80s at all the live gigs, So, my 2 cents?? I haven't heard anything Solid state that compares to the playability of a great tube amp. The practicality issue is another thing...but if tone and sounds are paramount..and money is no object ....tubes rule. I have been to many gigs where guys are using HD500 rigs and even guys who spend alot of time programming..It just doesn't sound as good, And if you calculate the time spent getting even close to a great sound? Just buy a great tube amp and you would have saved money. Sad,but true, Variety of sounds??? Ckeck out the newer tube amps that offer 3 channels,,,,some even 4 channels and programmable fx loop..and on board digital fx. Dont belive me? (and by now I can hear the torches being lit for the flame war....) try a hughes and Kettner Tonemeister 36..or similar. Smaller,better...and great. But there are others,from other companies, But hey, the big box stores love your perpetual search for the next thing. They profit from it. But ask yourself, when did you last buy some piece of gear and it ended the search?? i have. Of course,it was after years of mistakes..swear Ive owned every piece high tech guitar in the past 2 decades. So start flaming..but this is my 2 cents. thanks for listening.

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I keep it simple. I have a clean sound and a dirty sound, and a volume pedal. I get variations with different pickup selection and the volume and tone knobs.

 

 

 

I was in a band with a buddy years ago. He had a big midi setup. Between each song he was busy doing a tap dance on his pedal board to get to his next tone. It drove me crazy.

 

 

 

Me:

 

 

 

clean

 

 

 

dirty

 

 

 

go.

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I was in a band with a buddy years ago. He had a big midi setup. Between each song he was busy doing a tap dance on his pedal board to get to his next tone. It drove me crazy.

 

 

He was definitely doing it wrong then. I've still got my ADA stereo tube MIDI guitar set up in a rack somewhere back in the shop. That was the big advantage of MIDI setups, if done correctly. I could get to any one of 127 possible tone setups with a quick bank and number selection on a MIDI pedal. Back when I used it a lot, I didn't have to touch anything. I was also sequencing keyboards at the time and built in my guitar pre-amp and effects program changes into the sequences. Nothing like going from rhythm to lead to clean without touching a thing! Between program change and MIDI mapping it should have been a simple program change to control everything. I always hated watching a guitarist spend more time making pedal adjustments that no one can hear during a solo than actually performing said solo.

 

 

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Yeah probably easiest to say he wasn't doing it right. lol It's like if you need all these sounds, put them all in one bank, or bank the different ones together. It really turned me off from getting too complicated. I just keep it simple. A Boss ME5 into my 1984 100W JCM 800 and a 212 cabinet

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Even when I was using all those patches on that system, I still had the "bread and butter" patches (love that by the way) on the first three or four buttons of the MIDI pedal. Frankly, what I loved about my MIDI rack is that it kept me off of the floor and tweaking knobs. Any fine adjustments pretty much had to be done ahead of time. I really need to pull it out of storage and fire it up again.

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So, I've spent a good deal of time messing with this POD. And I think I'm close. First, I googled (that {censored} know everything :D) and WOW! There's millions of tones you can download. That was useful. LOL

 

Additionally, Line 6 has a million videos of how to get this sound or that... VERY useful

 

So, we played last night and the sound guy was VERY complimentary of my tone (and he's been critical n the past). I'm using 2 "patches". Each patch has 4 effects that I can turn on/off. One for each guitar I play:

 

Gretsch - A patch that has 2 distortions (heavier and light) and 2 delays (a short slap delay for rockabillly stuff and a longer digital delay

 

Strat - A patch that again has 2 distortions, chorus and delay

 

They both have other EQ, reverb, etc thats always on.

 

And if I'm being fair, it does make a difference in our sound.

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