Members Vito Corleone Posted February 2, 2015 Members Share Posted February 2, 2015 This line from Trevcda in another thread interested me: Nobody is going to pay us more for the improvement and if I were to actually admit it, which I won't, we could probably get away with a lot less production than I like to bring. I go through this same thoughts with what we do. I have little doubt we could travel around with less lighting and spend less time focusing on arrangement bits we think are clever or worrying about how we're dressed, or learning new songs, and still please the audiences to the same degree and get the same pay. OTHO, I also feel that keeping things "up" to a certain level not only makes us feel better about what we do, and therefore we work harder to put on a better show, but that all that stuff does have a long-term cumulative effect of being perceived as a better band and that, in turn, leads to more gigs and more money in the long run. But yes. When loading out some of that gear at the end of the night, I am often left thinking "you know, they would have liked us just as much without all this stuff...." So how much production do y'all think is necessary for your band and where do you draw the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vort Posted February 2, 2015 Members Share Posted February 2, 2015 I've evolved on this somewhat. I used to bring out everything. Now, equipment is scaled to how much the event is paying. Hard to do sometimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TrickyBoy Posted February 2, 2015 Members Share Posted February 2, 2015 I've gotten really minimalistic with regards to equipment. As we have evolved, we have made the following changes: - We hire a sound guy (with all his equipment and lights) for weddings and private events. I have a couple I like and I just bake their cost into our fee- We play, almost exclusively, venues that provide, at a minimum, sound and lights. We've been focusing mostly on casino gigs (and they even have a house drumset, which is fantastic!), and the few clubs we play all equipped with sound. I still have a lighting truss with some lights, that I break out from time to time. But for the most part, we're getting all the work we can handle without having to deal with that. I guess we're lucky that way. If we did have to lug a whole production to shows, I'd probably look at hiring a member that was a combination sound/light guy who handled most all of that. I take a really business-like approach to this - what are our core competencies. We're musicians and entertainers. We're not movers, or sound guys or light technicians. As such, we'll focus on what we do best and outsource or hire someone for what we don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 2, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 2, 2015 One of the singer's boyfriends, who was usually tagging along and helping with lugging the gear to most shows anyway, has been added to the official payroll as our "equipment technician". He sets up and tears down most of the lighting now and handles most of the heavy lifting. If they ever break up, she better find herself another big muscle-head type dude ASAP! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted February 2, 2015 Members Share Posted February 2, 2015 I'm definitely NOT a "minimalist" with regards to my personal stage gear ... I schlepp the gear that I like to play, I monitor my rig in stereo because I like the way it sounds, etc. I don't cut features / functionality out of my rig to reduce weight and/or slice the effort required during setup / teardown. I use a two tiered keyboard rig with two 88 key boards. Sure, my boards are heavy (a CP300 and a Kronos) ... but they're still just a fraction of what I carried back in the old days (Fender Rhodes, Hohner D6, Hammond C2 w\Leslie). Monitoring in stereo adds a single 45 lb powered speaker to the pile. My bands all "right size" the amount of PA and lights we use - depending on the venue. This tends to be out of recognition of space (and sometimes power) constraints more so than a attempt to reduce the amount effort it demands from us. We don't have that much lighting gear that the difference between "some" versus "all" is that much more effort (be that in terms of set-up/tear down time and/or schlepp). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GtrGeorge! Posted February 3, 2015 Members Share Posted February 3, 2015 Kudos to SpaceNorman. I feel the same way. Go "proper" or go home. Use what you need to please the people, and also to feed your soul. I know guys who do it all with less gear.....and it usually isn;t all that great, to be honest. Few people on earth can hold an audience for 4 hrs with a washtube and their bare hands! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members trevcda Posted February 3, 2015 Members Share Posted February 3, 2015 Go "proper" or go home. To be sure! There's nothing funnier to me than seeing a band with a guy playing an 8K custom shop guitar through a 4K hand wired boutique amplifier being supported by a $250 PA package from guitar center! I should clarify my comment quoted by Guido61 above; I've got various systems all the way up to a JBL SRX with four double 18 subs with appropriate tops and a separate monitor mixer. Trust me it works! The improvement I was referring to was making the jump to a digital mixer specifically. When I was knocking down mid five figures doing this it would have been a no brainer. Now? What I've got works and any improvement in that arena would be for no one but me. Financially speaking as a business it doesn't pencil out for me to make that move right now. To add to the discussion- Last year we did one of our annual gigs for local city government. When I advanced the gig, I was shown the postage stamp where we would just be background music. No room, no power available and certainly no need for much more than my small system consisting of a pair of JBL4702s over some small powered subs with a small powered mixer. Then at some point during the evening, all of sudden it was like someone opened a locked door and we find ourselves playing for a couple hundred people, all crowded around our small area rug and loving it. I'm completely panicked because now were driving the system too hard and on the verge of feedback, as monitors are basically mains behind us. But you know what? At the end of the day no one died and we're doing that same gig this weekend again. Nobody asked if we wouldn't mind bring an appropriately sized PA by the way, why didn't we have a digital board? I'll advance the venue sometime this week and hopefully I'll remember to let go and have fun. Because I'm that guy that has to worry about all that stuff, but at some point I will have done everything I can to make it the best we can. I have no doubt that I'll probably try and bring more this time, but do I really need to? There lies the question... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 3, 2015 Members Share Posted February 3, 2015 Our setup usually varies due to location. Normally we bring the whole show to the big community hall we play at, subs, tops, monitors centerfill side fill and an assload of lights. Ah hell, who doesn't want to look like rock stars, even if we aren't. Sometimes we are limited by a low ceiling, so we leave out some of the lights, and the shape of the room doesn't call for side fills. Sometimes it's basically outdoors and there's no use trying to haze the place all night. The odd time it's fully outdoors so you keep it simple in case you have to run for shelter. Not real crazy about these gigs. Luckily the board and power amps can stay inside. Our next gig is in small 60 person room. It pays $600, basically a favour for our singer. It will be fun, but we will travel lights. SOS, 2 or 3 monitors. 4 piece kit, similar to this. We are doing it pretty cheap for us, but it eill be fun, a lot less work than we usually do, and 3 hours away. Bar gigs just don't pay in the city. So again, it's more of a favor for our singer who lIves there. The setup will be like this. its an easy load in, a StPatrcks Day gig so I'm sure it will be a blast! By scaling back the setup we will be able to bring everything in my gear trailer. It's pretty full with the complete light show. Without it we have room from the drums, bass rig and my guitar rig so we can all travel in my truck to save on gas. Even at our biggest gigs we could get away with a lot less gear, but if we are charging pretty good prices, I think its good to see some production. I'm from the old days when all bands had big sound/light rigs. They also had a sound and light guy. We forgoe that to keep costs down. I think we provide a good setup and a good time! The gear is all paid for so hell, we might as well use it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted February 4, 2015 Members Share Posted February 4, 2015 Everything I'm doing now is small, self contained as much as possible and light light light!!! My Guitar rig is a Kemper and I run Direct with in ears. I have powered EV's with several smaller lighter Powered 12" subs now, instead of huge 18's. My partner recently got rid of his huge workstation keyboards and got a Small Roland that does the EP's some synth and organ, has drawbars etc..10lbs! And a small yamaha 88 key controler that's 35lbs...1'2 the weight of his old rig and he's running his band rig via Mainstage on a laptop for most sounds, all switching etc. Guitar through mainstage as well on the few tunes he plays. The x32 and video are being controlled from his laptop as well. I'm running tracks via Ableton and eventually lights on another macbook pro. For gigs when it's only a duo or us and a female singer, we will get one of the new Behringer Xr16 stageboxes and leave the X32 home. As far as lights go, I only have a few but i'm going to go very minimalist with a couple movers the colorstrips I have now and maybe a couple more panels or pars. For video we will start with 3 60's behind us...Because of our show I don't know if it's possible to hire someone with their own sound and lights as everything is kinda integrated with us but ya neve know if a certain type of gig comes up and it's more meat and potatoes i'm not opposed to hiring sound and lights. I WILL bring a soundman to run it all on every single wedding and corporate gig I do however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 4, 2015 Members Share Posted February 4, 2015 I'd love to be on IEM'a but I know no one would go for it. We don't play enough, plus I have all the monitors etc so it's not a big deal. It would be nice though. Are yoi going to decide on a rig and then have every band use the same kind of setup? I thought briefly about the RM16AI. But the 32 was only $400 more. Might as well have more capability than less... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted February 4, 2015 Members Share Posted February 4, 2015 Every band we do...80's, 90's, variety, and tributes are built upon a system that uses backing tracks in Ableton Live and the same lights and video rig, with the x32 and IEM's. So yes, all the bands use the exact same setup. It's a plug and play system. As to your comments about IEM's..Dude..I've been using them for 15 years already..I can't imaging being on wedges in 2015! Your PResonus gear has the same kinda monitoring built in as my Behringer stuff..Every band member can have a Stereo sound stage with all the instruments panned where they want, effects and can control his own mix vix an idevice or phone..It's a no brainer..The failing of IEM's was running in Mono but Stereo...WOW!! Trust me~.....That said I believe you have to set up a bitch mic so the bandleader can talk into it and the band hears it in the monitors but not mains...Also, you'll want an ambience mic setup to mix in to taste as well as a HH mic is MUST for the bass player to be able to lock into the drummer. I already went through this issue in my last band and it was solved with the HH Mic, even if it wasn't in the mains. So trust me, break out GOOD ear buds and work with it. Once you dial it in you'll never go back to heavy ass wedges!!...and you'll never have a problem hearing yourself again. PERIOD! I don't even know what that's like anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 4, 2015 Members Share Posted February 4, 2015 True. The thing is I provide fear for other venues so I'm definiteky keeping my wedges. Our guys have some money invested in quality gear buy I know they wouldn't be into buying IEM's. Our keyboard player is reeeeeeally cheap. I'd rather see her spend $500 on a new board instead of IEM's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted February 4, 2015 Members Share Posted February 4, 2015 ...Our _______ player is reeeeeeally cheap.....( I don't want to come off as if I'm a gear snob ... BUT, I'm a firm believer that there are some minimum standards in terms of equipment that every musician has to meet in order to satisfactorily fulfill the requirements of their roll in the band. When I find my wagon hitched to somebody who fits the description that Stratguy22 has called out - I usually find a way to unhitch it. I don't expect "latest and greatest" or "biggest and best" ... but I do expect the guys I play with to show up with gear that is in good repair, with "real" cables ... and all the accessories necessary to make it work right and appear professional on stage. Here's a few of the things I've encountered over the years that I refuse to deal with. ...did a gig with a band that plugged the "plug" portion of a typical 2 piece 1/4 connector into the back of the PA mains / amps ... then ran "lamp cord" between them - and used a couple of twists of electrical tape to connect bare wire to the splayed contacts of the "plug". ...saw a keyboard player who didn't bother with a stand ... just set an ancient board on top of a stack of cardboard boxes. ...had a guitar player ask if he needed to bring an amp - since he noticed I had a couple of unused channels on my keyboard mixer that he could "piggy back off of". ...had a guy who would show up with a pile of two short cables ... and a handful of "inline" connectors and connect them together to get a multi-segment cable that was long enough. It's wonderful to have McGuyver-esque skills to get you through an emergency. It's a whole 'nother kettle of fish when you expect to cobble a rig together night in and night out. I won't work with guys who fall into the latter category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 4, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 4, 2015 Yeah, it's hard to think about going back once you go to IEMs. A bit of getting used to, but so much better once you get it dialed in. Like with anything else, everyone will have different tastes. I don't find mono IEMs to be lacking at all, and unless you're going to run all the keys and guitars in stereo, what's the point? Although sometimes people do a "more me" mix by putting their own vocal to one side. But once you're doing your own mix from a tablet, that isn't necessary either. Same thing with ambient mics and a bandleader mic. Just depends on what you're doing and how you run things. We don't use either of those and everyone is more than happy with the set up. I gotta have the hi-hat in my ears as that's my clock. But it definitely opens up the options, to be sure. And yeah.....carrying around a bunch of wedges sucks. And takes up stage space. Although we still have a few extra powered speakers in the trailer for satellite systems and FOH backup. Personally, I like the cleaner look of no wedges, but again..... whatever works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 5, 2015 Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 I don't want to come off as if I'm a gear snob ... BUT, I'm a firm believer that there are some minimum standards in terms of equipment that every musician has to meet in order to satisfactorily fulfill the requirements of their roll in the band. When I find my wagon hitched to somebody who fits the description that Stratguy22 has called out - I usually find a way to unhitch it. I don't expect "latest and greatest" or "biggest and best" ... but I do expect the guys I play with to show up with gear that is in good repair, with "real" cables ... and all the accessories necessary to make it work right and appear professional on stage. Here's a few of the things I've encountered over the years that I refuse to deal with. Yikes those are quite the examples!! On our gigs I provide everything, except their personal gear. Mics, cables, DI's power drops, the works. They provide everything after the AC drop and the DI. It just seems like we get everything going in sound check but then it seems to always cut out during the gig. I'd love to see her go to a controller and a brain, or controller to a laptop. I dont know if its a case of her needing "more me" it seems the signal isn't there, then suddenly its redlining. She's a little on the green side with us being her first band. I think she has a little trouble sitting in the mix when it's not a lead part. But God bless her, she's a great bandmate. I just know she wouldn't be one for IEM's. While we don't play every weekend, we do have 10 gigs on the books so far for the year. but yeah, IEM's just aren't in the cards. That's a nice clean look Dave, really slick!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted February 5, 2015 Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 I kind of feel like everyone should be responsible for their own monitor. Why should one person lug around all those monitors? Especially if you've got a digital board where everyone can control their own mix. It seems like individual band members should be responsible for making sure they can hear other bandmates effectively. With response to IEM, I'm making the switch right now in my new band. I think it can be done really cost effectively be everyone, especially if you go with the wired option. Either way, I just think it's strange (and I've always brought monitors for everyone so I guess I'm part of the madness) that people don't take control of their own monitoring. Wardhttp://www.straituptribute.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 5, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yikes those are quite the examples!! On our gigs I provide everything, except their personal gear. Mics, cables, DI's power drops, the works. They provide everything after the AC drop and the DI. It just seems like we get everything going in sound check but then it seems to always cut out during the gig. I'd love to see her go to a controller and a brain, or controller to a laptop. I dont know if its a case of her needing "more me" it seems the signal isn't there, then suddenly its redlining. She's a little on the green side with us being her first band. I think she has a little trouble sitting in the mix when it's not a lead part. But God bless her, she's a great bandmate. I just know she wouldn't be one for IEM's. While we don't play every weekend, we do have 10 gigs on the books so far for the year. but yeah, IEM's just aren't in the cards. That's a nice clean look Dave, really slick!!! which keyboard is she using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 5, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 I kind of feel like everyone should be responsible for their own monitor. Why should one person lug around all those monitors? Especially if you've got a digital board where everyone can control their own mix. It seems like individual band members should be responsible for making sure they can hear other bandmates effectively. With response to IEM, I'm making the switch right now in my new band. I think it can be done really cost effectively be everyone, especially if you go with the wired option. Either way, I just think it's strange (and I've always brought monitors for everyone so I guess I'm part of the madness) that people don't take control of their own monitoring. Ward http://www.straituptribute.com ward! Long time! How's it goin!? monitors have pretty much always been a "part of the PA" deal with any band I've been in, whether the PA was collectively owned or owned by one person. Although our our system now is pretty much individually owned as everyone is responsible for their own wireless, ears and tablet. But if the band is running a digital mixer, running IEMs isn't going to be much more than a traditional monitoring system. Especially if it's a bigger system where you're trying to run 5 or 6 or more separate mixes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 5, 2015 Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 True. If we were buying a PA as a band, it would be easier to get everyone to buy their own. Since I also provide sound for other venues/bands I have a full compliment of monitors (actually I have a dozen monitors. But that's a different story) Paid for and making money goes a long way in the stay with monitors argument. as as for keyboards I'm guessing they are a little below MI, Maybe an Akai and a Casio. I honestly have no idea. I'll take a look at the next gig. I don't think either has weighted keys, as they are pretty light in their soft cases. In her defence, she's not a keyboard player by trade, she does what she can and it definitely adds to the songs she plays on. I guess I'm just thinking out loud. Of course I'm the guy with almost 40 guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 5, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 I'm just wondering if the problems with volume might actually be something defective in the keyboard. Cheapy boards are often going to come with all the usual "you get what you pay for" type issues. And yes, if she's not an experienced player, that can be part of the problem as well. Knowing how to get the sounds to sit in the mix and yet still be heard is something all keyboard players in rock bands struggle with. Just like with guitar or drums or any instrument, there's a lot more to it than just pressing down on a key and hoping for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 5, 2015 Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 True. She runs both boards into a small mixer and then I DI it from there. I usually compress the crap out of it because some songs she plays harder than others. Also so she has to work on sitting in the mix. Every note she plays isn't lead keyboards. She has a volume pedal so I have to get after her to make sure she's using it. Go full volume for the leads, then bring it back for the rest of the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted February 5, 2015 Author Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 "plays harder"? That really shouldn't be an issue on most boards/sounds, especially cheaper ones. I would suggest taking the time at rehearsal to go through all her patches and getting the volumes right for each song so she's not having to mess with the volume control or pedal as much as possible. And compressing them is probably only going to make things worse until you do that. If she's not that experienced, you need to make it as much as "set it and forget it" as you can. And it sounds like you may need to help her with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 5, 2015 Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 Yeah I don't know what it is. Might have to sit down and go through Her whole setup. It's like the gain goes through the roof now and then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinC Posted February 5, 2015 Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 We, as musicians, bring the gear we want so that we can hear the sounds we want. Simple as that. Once you make it about the client, you can justify just about anything. Lights and stuff, sure client expectations need to be considered. Same with PA. But as far as personal gear, when doing a concert, I bring two guitars so I won't be fumbling for a string if one breaks. I bring my old boogie amp in spite of it's weight because I love the tone it produces. I think musicians do way too much compromising in order to get gigs. If you bring the gear you need to sound the way you want, that should do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted February 5, 2015 Members Share Posted February 5, 2015 True enough. Our show is a little indulgent. I practice with a small vox amp. For gigs it's the old JCM800. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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