Objective Third Party Sitting in On Practice

[Opus Antics]

Last night at practice we had a guy come sit with us to monitor sound and provide feedback. He's an experienced guy who has gigged up and down the east coast, can sing, play guitar, bass, and keys and has an ear for sound. In other words, experienced and objective.

 

We had one of the best practices we've had in years. Guy gave us the straight dope on what was working, what wasn't working, what to change, how to change it. Everyone listened with an open mind and nobody got all defensive if he said "XYZ isn't working for that song". We tried implementing his suggestions and wow it sounded so much better! When things clicked, he'd tell us. When something was lacking, he'd make a suggestion. No sugar coating, no BS.

 

We loved it. We practiced an hour longer than usual and didn't even notice the time. The setlist has been completely revamped. How we play some of the songs has been revised. And the whole approach to our show has been updated. Very excited to get this polished up and bring it public.

 

Shoulda done this a year ago.

[nchangin]

Good for you, a fresh set of eyes (and ears) can be a Godsend in objective correction.criticism.

[Vito Corleone]

With few exceptions, musicians should never be their own producers. If this rule applies in the world of recorded music, it only makes sense it would apply in the world of live music as well.

 

This is, IMO, the main reason why it often takes bands SO LONG to become good at what they do. They do things by trial and error, wait for audience response to decide what works and what doesn't, and then still argue among themselves over what is best and what is not. An experienced "producer" can take years off that process.

[SpaceNorman]

I agree with Nchangin ... a fresh set of eyes (and ears) to be a real help.

 

However, I am a bit curious about the background. Did the band decide to bring him in specifically for this purpose? Was your "guy" somebody who had no ties with anybody in the band prior to this engagement ... or is he already a friend/acquaintance of somebody in the band? If he had no ties - how did you hook up with him? (... is he offering his services as a business ... or is simply an experienced musician who agreed to give you a critical listen?) What initiated the invitation ... were you looking for a 3rd party opinion to help arbitrate existing differences of opinion ... or simply looking for a 3rd party critique in general? I ask only because I'm trying to imagine the band dynamics associated with bringing in a 3rd party to critique.

 

I've pretty much always been happy to listen to advice / suggestions from whoever cares to give it. Of course, listening doesn't necessarily mean heeding. I'm of the opinion that truly good advice is usually stands on its own regardless of the source - and that I'll be smart enough to recognize good advice when I hear it.

 

However, I'm always a little skeptical when it comes to "objectivity". I've been in situations where bandmates have tried to use "suggestions" from a friend as a means of leverage to push for what changes that they (the bandmate(s)) were unable to convince the rest of us would be good for the group on his own.

 

 

[Opus Antics]

I agree with Nchangin ... a fresh set of eyes (and ears) to be a real help.

 

However, I am a bit curious about the background. Did the band decide to bring him in specifically for this purpose? Was your "guy" somebody who had no ties with anybody in the band prior to this engagement ... or is he already a friend/acquaintance of somebody in the band? If he had no ties - how did you hook up with him? (... is he offering his services as a business ... or is simply an experienced musician who agreed to give you a critical listen?) What initiated the invitation ... were you looking for a 3rd party opinion to help arbitrate existing differences of opinion ... or simply looking for a 3rd party critique in general? I ask only because I'm trying to imagine the band dynamics associated with bringing in a 3rd party to critique.

 

I've pretty much always been happy to listen to advice / suggestions from whoever cares to give it. Of course, listening doesn't necessarily mean heeding. I'm of the opinion that truly good advice is usually stands on its own regardless of the source - and that I'll be smart enough to recognize good advice when I hear it.

 

However, I'm always a little skeptical when it comes to "objectivity". I've been in situations where bandmates have tried to use "suggestions" from a friend as a means of leverage to push for what changes that they (the bandmate(s)) were unable to convince the rest of us would be good for the group on his own.

 

 

Originally the idea was we needed someone to run our board at shows. We have top notch PA equipment so we don't need a full-blown sound guy. We just need someone to sit in back with a provided ipad and run the board. We each asked a few people that we trusted to have good ears and an ability to run sound and this guy was available. So, yes, he is a friend of one of the band members. Thinking back to the suggestions and comments he made at practice, I can't think of anything that would have maybe been motivated by this one band member's agenda.

 

In terms of the feedback, he just started doing that on his own. He originally was to come just to meet us all, give us a listen, check out our PA and see if it was something he wanted to do. But he's been around the block and he has opinions. As soon as we started he started piping up with his opinions. And they were darn good ones. So we started listening. Next thing we knew we had made some big advancements that we were all excited about.

[SpaceNorman]

Sounds like you've found a valuable resource!

 

The skepticism that oozed from my previous post stemmed from a handful of experiences with former bandmates who would bring a friend around ... introduce them as "musician buddies" .... then together, proceed to make a buh-zillion suggestions - too many of which would be self serving ! You know ... Gee, the guitar player's buddy says the guitar needs to be louder ... and then the guitar player (already the most prominent instrument in the mix) says "yeah, see I told you I needed to be louder ... even my "objective" buddy says so!" ... and expecting that I get right on that "turn him up" thing ... sort of stuff.). Or the harmonica player's girlfriend who wants to chime in arrangements ... and whose suggestions revolve our need to have a harmonica solo in pretty much every song of the night.

 

My experiences have definitely jaundiced my views about how objective purported 3rd party input usually is - so I was interested in how your 3rd party input came to be! I'm glad your experience isn't taking the road so many of mine have in this regard!

[Opus Antics]

Sounds like you've found a valuable resource!

 

The skepticism that oozed from my previous post stemmed from a handful of experiences with former bandmates who would bring a friend around ... introduce them as "musician buddies" .... then together, proceed to make a buh-zillion suggestions - too many of which would be self serving ! You know ... Gee, the guitar player's buddy says the guitar needs to be louder ... and then the guitar player (already the most prominent instrument in the mix) says "yeah, see I told you I needed to be louder ... even my "objective" buddy says so!" ... and expecting that I get right on that "turn him up" thing ... sort of stuff.). Or the harmonica player's girlfriend who wants to chime in arrangements ... and whose suggestions revolve our need to have a harmonica solo in pretty much every song of the night.

 

My experiences have definitely jaundiced my views about how objective purported 3rd party input usually is - so I was interested in how your 3rd party input came to be! I'm glad your experience isn't taking the road so many of mine have in this regard!

 

 

LOL, well if that's in play then it's a slow con.

[nchangin]

Agree with space norman, 3rd parties usually suck especially the wives, husbands, and SO's. They are all bias. They shouldn't be in rehersal. Granted they can help with feedback on shows, but the bias will always be there, no winning that battle.

 

 

[Vito Corleone]

The key word being "objective", of course. Take with the appropriate measure of salt any third party opinion that you have reason to believe from the onset won't be objective.

 

But someone coming in from the outside who knows what they are talking about a bit? Such a viewpoint can often be invaluable if the bandmembers are all willing to listen.

[Iamthesky]

In the last band I was in, we brought in a "producer" to polish up our presentation and music. It certainly did that, with some very good results musically, but indirectly it caused the break-up of the band. Our guitarist joined the producer's band and quit ours.

[GtrGeorge!]

Call me nuts but:...if someone I respect WANTS to give a listen and make a few suggestions, cool. But I wouldn't normally go looking. To many self proclaimed experts (People who have no gigs). But if its a peer, and its coming from a person who has no agenda,GREAT. That really can be helpful. I hear alot of advice....I don't nescesarily do everything that is suggested, but I do aggressively want to hear what people think. I care alot about what think and feel about the music I make.