Next step toward a silent stage

[nousername]

Seems like every time we play through the JamHub with e-drums and guitar modelers, we make huge strides in just about every aspect. Vocals are more likely to be on key, singers can monitor themselves easier, songs come together MUCH faster, etc. Which makes me want to play silent all of the time, including live.

 

Many bands in our area seem to make audiences happy with two 12" or 15" passive or active mains for vocals only, maybe a monitor for a singer or two, quiet(er) acoustic drums, small guitar/bass amplifiers, and that's it. We could do that too, but I think it's too easy to let volume get away from certain (guitars, ahem!) members of the band. Plus, as good as we sound with IEM and a quiet rehearsal space, that should be our goal.

 

There are issues, of course. There always are. Guitar two uses a Line6 Pod something, bass uses the DI of his Sansamp, I use e-drums, and guitar one refuses to use anything except his small pedal board into a Micro Terror head with the phones out to the JamHub. But he can't get clean tones without some knob adjustment. I think in between song time should be counted in single digit seconds, which means pedals or patches based off a clean tone. And playing live? He wants to use the MT plus a single 12" Marshall cab. It does sound amazing. But we would need an iso box for it to keep stage volume low. iso box isn't a huge deal. I have woodworking tools. It sucks, but I don't think a small 20 watt guitar rig in an iso box is a major issue. It's just annoying he won't compromise.

 

Which leads to my questions. I'd like to slowly move into a silent stage by starting with acoustic drums, 4x10 bass rig, then guitars and vox through mains. Basically, no subs for the house rig. We would monitor ourselves by splitting the guitars and vox into the mixer and JamHub. Then, wired IEM for everyone. Don't worry, we don't jump around a lot on stage. If everything works well, I would buy a single active sub to start, then eliminate the bass rig and acoustic drums. We're not going for ear splitting volume, just clear and balanced levels between the instruments/vox with just enough kick and bass in the mix so the sound isn't flat.

 

How does this look knowing our goals and local area as I described:

 

The ZXA1 sub looks great. And it's compact, too. If that isn't enough sound level, I guess I would buy a ELX118P sub. The ZXA1 specs state 53-93Hz (half space) at -3 dB. Looks like half space is related to the EQ mode that boosts low frequencies. :/ The ELX states 42-100Hz at -3dB, also half space. Is that worth the extra ~$200 and much larger cubic feet of space? It's 2.87 vs 6.7 cu ft. (15.75*17.5*18)/1728 and (26*20*22.5)/1744. Mains are ELX112P. Mixer is my trusty Zed10FX. It has enough inputs for the "dip my toes in the water" solution, plus just enough for the complete silent stage with e-drums solution.

 

It's important to note that bands generally don't make a lot of money in our area. I think top end right now is $600 for a night. So it doesn't make sense to invest in high end gear. I'm willing to put in some of my own money to help supplement the money I make from gigs to buy this mid-range gear. Everything I make from gigs goes into new gear.

 

Yes, I am trying to do this with as little outlay as possible. But I do recognize the "buy once, cry once" mantra.

 

Thanks for reading if you made it this far...

[Opus Antics]

Well...I don't know all that stuff as well as a bunch of the accomplished sound guys on this forum would. But I've moved to an almost silent stage and this is how I did it... Guitar into a PODHD500 which goes direct to the PA. Bass DI into the PA. Keys direct into the PA. Drums are just your regular drums - they're the only sound noise right now. PA uses a Mackie DL1608 for mixing. For monitoring, we use Shure's personal monitoring systems - the older PSM systems. We use two transmitters. One is set to focus on the lead singer's voice and she has full control over how that one sounds. The other is basically a flat mix of the whole band that simulates the FOH. Everyone uses an IEM and they can either latch onto the lead singer channel or the flat band channel.

 

I'm a huge fan of this. Less to carry. Less to pack. Less to move. Cleaner sound.

 

I did at one point consider using an isolation box around my amp. I have a sweet pedalboard that goes into a Budda amp that I just die with pleasure every time I hear. But for bar and club gigs its just simply too much trouble for something that I don't think anyone other than pure guitarists would notice. I get where you're guitarist is coming from. It is different to play with a modeler instead of a real amp with pedals. And you can't get everything you want out of it. At least I haven't been able to. But it's more than good enough, and when I go out front and listen I think it sounds great. But it is what it is. I'd love for my drummer to move to electronic drums but he's reluctant so I just let him be.

 

Anyway, that's how I do it and I've had great results. Hopefully, there's something helpful in here for you to take away.

[StratGuy22]

I personally don't want a silent stage, just a resonable volume on stage.

[nousername]

I personally don't want a silent stage' date=' just a resonable volume on stage.[/quote']

 

Me too. If I shoot for silent, then I'll be pleased with reasonable levels...

[nousername]

I get where you're guitarist is coming from. It is different to play with a modeler instead of a real amp with pedals. And you can't get everything you want out of it. At least I haven't been able to. But it's more than good enough' date=' and when I go out front and listen I think it sounds great. But it is what it is. I'd love for my drummer to move to electronic drums but he's reluctant so I just let him be.[/quote']

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

I too was reluctant to give up acoustic drums, but our ability to play better with e-drums (and thus a quiet room) is worth any minor loss of visual appeal, sound, et al. Maybe guitar one will come around eventually. He has a little Vox modeler, but he'll only use it for rehearsal.

 

[jeff42]

I love my vdrums for various reasons and one of them is it allows us to have VERY low stage volume. I haven't had my ears ring after a gig in ages! I have been gigging with vdrums for 12 years now. doubt i'll go back. why do you say you were reluctant ? visual appeal? most of the time my vdrums add to the curiosity from the crowd. i guess it depends on your kit. i know some of the older kits or smaller kits arent as striking.

[nousername]

I'm way less reluctant to move away from acoustic drums than a couple other guys in the band. I'm am ALL about how things sound in the house. I want that to sound as good as possible, and will go to great lengths to make it happen. My biggest concern is an issue with the module or a trigger. I do run the kit and the JamHub behind a UPS.

[jeff42]

My biggest concern is an issue with the module or a trigger. I do run the kit and the JamHub behind a UPS.

 

I understand thats why I have a td-6 as a back up in case my td-12 takes a crap. I also have a back up kick pad and the other drums are interchangeable if one goes at a gig. I do want to upgrade my "backup" though. the td 6 will get me by but it doesnt sound as good as my 12. That sounds great !

[sventvkg]

I don't know anything about the Jamhub but you can use any number of the new digital boards by Behringer, Mackie, QSC, PResonus to easily integrate everyone in the band on ears with their own send and mix via IOS device. This is what we do.

 

As far as silent stage that's what we have minus acoustic drums. I always miss a real snare and cymbals personally but I would definitely entertain V Drums if our drummer was game. As it stands now we've had to put a towel over the snare and use dowels for a few lower volume private function gigs but think a nice piece of plexiglass would solve the issue so I'll grab one for the drummer when I get my own band going early next year after I move.

 

As far as your guitar player not wanting to move to a direct rig, just give him the ultimatum as a band. I really don't see the big deal as the modeling rigs are really very usable nowadays.

[Vito Corleone]

As it stands now we've had to put a towel over the snare and use dowels for a few lower volume private function gigs but think a nice piece of plexiglass would solve the issue so I'll grab one for the drummer when I get my own band going early next year after I move.

 

That mostly depends upon the drummer. I've played with guys that were so loud we needed to use plexiglass even in the loudest rock clubs. My current guy can play whisper-quiet and still keep the groove going if necessary. His stage volume has never been an issue (as far as the soundman or the venue was concerned anyway.) Personally, I'd love to go V-drums just because I'd love to get rid of all stage volume completely, but I don't think he'll ever go for it.

 

So unless you come across a piece of plexiglass really, really cheap and just can't pass up the bargain, I'd wait to see who your drummer is going to end up being first. (Or maybe you already know?)

[sventvkg]

 

That mostly depends upon the drummer. I've played with guys that were so loud we needed to use plexiglass even in the loudest rock clubs. My current guy can play whisper-quiet and still keep the groove going if necessary. His stage volume has never been an issue (as far as the soundman or the venue was concerned anyway.) Personally, I'd love to go V-drums just because I'd love to get rid of all stage volume completely, but I don't think he'll ever go for it.

 

So unless you come across a piece of plexiglass really, really cheap and just can't pass up the bargain, I'd wait to see who your drummer is going to end up being first. (Or maybe you already know?)

 

 

I generally don't like V-Drums..Sorry but they usually sound like {censored}E....Maybe with a Real Snare and cymbals..The Cymbals are usually the achilles heel. YES..I have EXTENSIVE experience with them as I had an 11 piece top of the line V Drum set in my studio until early this year, since the 90's!...Maybe if the drummer was running a set with real sounds like Slate, BFD or Toontrack it might work but I don't like them...I'd use them with real snare and cymbals though as I said.

 

Yes I know who my drummer is going to be. Same one I have now as he and his wife will be moving to FL as well but probably between next Spring and Summer...I'll get someone to warm his spot in the interm:) If we even do any band gigs before he moves there...Mark and I will be doing a duo and I will do a lot of solo acoustic gigs. Mark is playing Drums in our 2 Tribute bands we have worked up already, U2 and Bon Jovi (Rick will take over Drums on this one when he moves down and Mark will move to Keys. ( Keys are on tracks now as Bon Jovi Keys suck a$$...Anwyay Rick is great but probably wouldn't enjoy VDrums either.

[nousername]

I don't know anything about the Jamhub but you can use any number of the new digital boards by Behringer, Mackie, QSC, PResonus to easily integrate everyone in the band on ears with their own send and mix via IOS device. This is what we do.

 

A digital board would be great, especially for the built in comps and effects, but the expense isn't really necessary. The JamHub and splitting instruments/vox is likely the best way to achieve five aux mixes and keep costs low. Remember we aren't getting paid a lot of money in this area. The JamHub will be right in front of the drums so everyone can reach it, so that takes care of the individuals controlling their own mix. If we find that levels don't need a lot of adjustment once soundcheck is done, then we can move it off the side.

 

I appreciate your input.

 

[trevcda]

I would have made the move to IEM years ago, but as I'm often running sound from stage I've always wondered how to monitor what going on out front with out constantly popping out an IEM. That and at the time I'd have way too much push back from the members who would buy the $99 IEM system and wonder why it didn't sound as good as the Sennheisers and custom molds I'd intended to get. We had a couple a cheap bastards who always tried to bring in low end monitors and wireless mics and then wonder why the didn't sound as good as the EAW and Shure ULXP stuff that I was using. I mean, equipment is equipment right? As usual, the same guys that would think nothing of dumping many thousands into instrument and amp and then mic it with a $25 knock off mic.

 

Funny story; I remember seeing a band a couple years ago. They were all on IEMs and had just gotten back on stage after a break and started into their first song and all you can hear out front is twanging of strings, drum sticks on rubber and plastic and un-amplified vocals. And there just a-goin' to town and rockin' out because it probably sounds great in their ears! Someone finally got their attention and pointed at the mains and shrugged. They'd forgotten to un-mute the channel strips after the break. Apparently it wasn't the first time. Hilarious to watch though.

 

<---- Looked and sounded about like that.

[nousername]

Do the ZXA subs seem like a good option with my ELX 112P mains?

 

What about a Mackie ProFX series? The 12 channel is reasonably priced, but is missing sweepable mids, PFL, simple compression for vocals or bass, and sub groups, which I love. But I love them as an engineer who can make adjustments at any time, not as a drummer who is mixing from behind the kit.

 

Buy once, cry once, eh?

[RGfretter]

Seems like every time we play through the JamHub with e-drums and guitar modelers, we make huge strides in just about every aspect. Vocals are more likely to be on key, singers can monitor themselves easier, songs come together MUCH faster, etc. Which makes me want to play silent all of the time, including live.

 

Many bands in our area seem to make audiences happy with two 12" or 15" passive or active mains for vocals only, maybe a monitor for a singer or two, quiet(er) acoustic drums, small guitar/bass amplifiers, and that's it. We could do that too, but I think it's too easy to let volume get away from certain (guitars, ahem!) members of the band. Plus, as good as we sound with IEM and a quiet rehearsal space, that should be our goal.

 

I like to combine these. Acoustic drums, bass and guitar amps set to fill the stage only (like rehearsal), and mic'ed. All this can be monitored in ear, though is not always necessary, especially for the instrumentalists. This takes serious trust that the guitars are being heard thru the mains well! A very hard thing for many guitarists...and especially bassists.

 

I don't agree that a guitarist can get away with a small amp not mic'ed. It may sound good onstage, and from certain spots offstage, but no way fills the venue evenly. To the point of being nearly inaudible depending on your place in the venue. I bought a wireless and was shocked how my guitar faded as I moved around the place.

 

 

 

 

[Jasaoke]

I'm in a group that achieves zero stage volume, and I love it. V-Drums, Pod and Vox amp modelers, and an Eden direct device for bass. The basic idea was to make the band as mixable as possible, and I think we're there. The nature of our act (live band karaoke) means that IEMs aren't an option, but they would certainly be the icing on the cake. Without anything to bleed on to vocal mics, or interfere with monitoring in general, the overall level of the wedges can be kept sensible, essentially eliminating feedback issues. (Of course, with IEMs...)

 

I worked as an engineer for some time, during which I fell in love with V-Drums right away. They're quiet, lightwieght, sound great; all the mic-ing, eq-ing, etc. is already done. The amp modelers work great for guitars. Sure, you can fall down a rabbit hole of sounds and adjustments, but if they're used responsibly, they're great. They accept pedals, come chock-full o' effects, and can give the sound of fully blown rig at any volume.

 

The only drawback is that it does require a decent PA. In a big room or outside, the V-Drums will die without subs. The notion of a "small vocal PA" is out the window, but in truth, the PA is supposed to do the heavy lifting, anyway. RGfretters point about a small amp not being audible everywhere holds true for a big amp, as well. Not to mention the fact that a guitar or bass amp that is turned up to fill the room will cause all kinds of trouble onstage. The PA is there to deliver the band sound to the room. We hire out our PA and it's about the best thing ever. We roll into the venue, Todd's already set up, it takes us 20 mins or so to setup, and soundcheck is a breeze!

 

Sorry to go on and on, but I love the Zero Stage Volume concept, and I'm so glad to have found other people who like it quiet.

[GtrGeorge!]

Hey guys! I LOVE the idea of a silent stage...but so far it hasnt been tenable for me. If I forsaked profit, I could do it tommorrow...but every piece of small,light gear has its price and the older heavier stuff is still paying the bills. But I long to get the volumes down...as a singer/guitar player..the high volume levels are a distraction to getting the job done,imho.....and anyone who thinks you have to blast is just admitting their inexperience,in my view.

PS: Tell your guitarist with the small amp..that is still to loud... to get a Palmer DI box and lose the speakers.He can use the amp to make the tone, but get the out from there and go into a Palmer DI or a ADA microCab...they sound very good, -GtrGeorge

 

[nousername]

PS: Tell your guitarist with the small amp..that is still to loud... to get a Palmer DI box and lose the speakers.He can use the amp to make the tone, but get the out from there and go into a Palmer DI or a ADA microCab...they sound very good, -GtrGeorge

 

His current rig is an Orange Micro Terror and a mid 90s single 12" Marshall cab. It does sound amazing. When he uses just the head and runs a cable from it to our JamHub, the tone is markedly different. Less sustain, less balls. So I sympathize with him. But I also cringe because we're all making sacrifices (except Camille; her voice is the same no matter what) to create a silent stage. I just wish he would also compromise.

 

I'll end up building a tiny ISO box to hold that cab and a microphone and call it a day. It won't be silent, but it will be behind me and as quiet as possible.

[GtrGeorge!]

nousername: Running a cable out of the Orange will certainly sound kinda wimpy..if it's like most amps with DI out ..those DIs built in generally are better than nothing but NOT MUCH. I am VERY VERY picky about my tone..and I can say that the Palmer DI is the only one I like. Ive tried so many. Palmer is used by Vai,VanHalen,Def Lep etc etc ..there is a reason. Its not 100% as good as a speaker but 90% of the way there is damn good..and THEN you will have a silent stage. AND That will reap tons of benefits,imho. Just do it!!! PS: just looked at pics of that Orange amp....it has no real DI out just a speaker out....not sure what ya meant by saying he ran from its DI out.....please clarify and know that the Palmer is the shizzle.

[wesg]

nousername, are you actually saying that you would prefer your guitar player to sound far from his best and play quiet, than sound good and play at a non-quiet but reasonable volume?

[nousername]

He runs a cable from the headphone out of the Micro Terror directly the the JamHub.

 

I wouldn't say it's far from his best when not using a speaker cabinet, but we're all making sacrifices in tone to get to a silent stage. He can too. Maybe the cab mic'd up in an ISO box will be enough attenuation. We're not to that point yet.

[ski219]

So I am a guitarist and I hate the idea of a silent stage and not playing through my amp. I have only seen a couple of bands with no amps on stage and neither of them had good guitar sounds. Scratch that, they both had terrible guitar tones. I have never seen a band in a concert venue or a festival playing with no amps and I wonder why some of you guys aspire to the silent stage? Granted it can be challenging to set up so everyone can hear everyone else but IMO it is worth the trouble.

[RGfretter]

So I am a guitarist and I hate the idea of a silent stage and not playing through my amp. I have only seen a couple of bands with no amps on stage and neither of them had good guitar sounds. Scratch that' date=' they both had terrible guitar tones. I have never seen a band in a concert venue or a festival playing with no amps and I wonder why some of you guys aspire to the silent stage? Granted it can be challenging to set up so everyone can hear everyone else but IMO it is worth the trouble.[/quote']

 

Absolutely!

 

Most know like you say,....most players. This thread is just a bunch of typing BS.

 

 

[GtrGeorge!]

nousername: please do not listen to people who say you have to sacrifice tone for volume.It's 2014 and that's not the case. David Bowie has done it, I go ampless,, and so can you.

btw: I read your reply...indeed if you take the headphone out and run it into JamHub it's gonna sound wimpy. That's why DI speaker cab boxes exist..there is a need. True pros run a quiet stage area..amateurs run loud ones. Use a Palmer with the Orange and your guitarist will be happy and so will you. True Pros understand that you NEED to play at low (or no) volumes to preserve your hearing and your voices.

[GtrGeorge!]

PS: I know some will flame me...but I have played live alot and recorded alot and Ive owned tones of gear. This is my opinion and I truly believe it. You can disagree..but my opinion is offered from alot of experience. And despite,my pic..I play electric guitar mainly.