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Shafted by the band!!


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I just read about what people were making for gigs on the bass forum, and I was wondering what I should be getting for what I do. Here's the deal, I am the bass player and I own the PA. There are four other members in the band. We usually split the money evenly when we do play out. I know I'm getting shafted, but everyone always bitches when it comes to money. I have five thousand into PA and another three or so into my various bass gear. I want to call the PA another band member and get that cut too, I got an earfu!! Then I said, "Well, we can rent a lame PA for $100, so at least give me that!!" No way!! The people who complain the most are 1.The lead singer who owns a mike and 2.The rest who spend their money on dope and beer and cancer. They also argue that they have money into their guitar, amp etc. It's a no win with them, what should I do??!! I'm always the bad guy when I bring this up and the others can't see past their paltry B.S.

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Depends on how bad you want to play with these guys. IIWY, I'd walk, and let them see what it's like with no PA. The resentment will pull the band apart eventually, anyway--and with the next band you form, you can work outthe deal on the front end. If I didn't get bux and bennies for my rig (over $25K in it), I wouldn't be playing with these guys.

 

Phil

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Interesting subject. I'm the bass player and singer of 99% of the songs and I own the PA too. Mine is only a Mackie 808S powered mixer and EON 15"mains. (The guitarist just bought the monitors off me for $200). I don't mind because the other member's do a huge part of the marketing and get all the job's and the people out to the shows. Besides, I'm the singer.

 

In your case, I'd demand a cut for the PA or walk. Sounds like your with cheapskates and with a PA, can easily find others.

 

Oh, by the way, stay away from dopers and you'll find that the new memberswill think a little more rationally and will be happy to contribute to the till.

 

LOL.

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Well, I would "Take it in for repair" when a gig is coming up and say it isn't around we will have to rent. Do that a couple times and either they will see the light or walk. Honestly, it doesn't matter how much each of you has in your individual equipment, that is your decision to buy or not but the PA is for everyone (especially the singer) and so everyone should pay. I have to admit you are being used.

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The whole concept of how the band gets paid can be the end of a good band. Personally, I like laying it all out up front and not having any surprises. Certainly, beyond a small club, the PA is to reinforce the entire band and it wouldn't be fair for one member to purchase and maintain it. There are other band chores like marketing/booking, music direction etc. that may take time over and above what the a lesser member has to put in, if all he does is show up to practice and gigs. In our band, I own and run the PA, along with being the male lead and rhythm guitarist. I take an extra cut of the gross for the PA; it's only a partial cut, but it takes care of routine maintenance and then some. Other members get extra percentages for handling the marketing/booking. It works for us!

 

Even if everyone has a good day job and no one is playing "for the money", everyone cares what their perceived value is too the band relative to the other members. I've been in bands that nearly melted down because we paid a light man/roady $100 (he got $100 every gig-no more, no less) and the singer got less on a night where we accepted a crappy paying gig. Now she didn't need the money; and she agreed to pay the light guy (and roadie) $100 a gig; and she agreed to take this low paying gig; but, it hurt her to the core that she practiced for free and invested in microphones and showed up and performed for less money that our paid help. We kinda saw her point, but thought she should have broke out the calculator before agreeing to set his fee at $100 or before she agreed to take a gig that would result in her making less. Bottom line...there can be a lot of drama and everyone has an opinion on their worth and it can make a fun band, not so fun!

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Well,

Like Phil said and Terry (Flanc I like your suggestion too. Sometimes ya gotta play hardball)here's what I do.

I play bass and own the PA/mics/monitors etc. When we play gigs I take 15% before taxes etc off the top for equipment maintenence (ie $350 a night = roughly $55.00)I own everything except the drums and guitar players amps (even own a couple of the guitars). We then have decided on 10% for band trans and recording = 35.00. We then split 4 ways equally. If they don't like it play hardball and tell them to rent a system. Three nighter for what I have is about 400.000 to 500.00. The 55.00 is way cheaper.

We also practice at my studio so I pay the electric and insurance. If they can't handle it, like Phil says DUMP there ASSES!!!

You need to lay this kind of stuff out front so there is no latitude or interpretation problems later on. Also ask them what happens when a piece of your gear goes down? They gonna chip in on the repair/replacement?

Doubt it. Stand up for yourself and tell them that's how it is.

And BTW tell your singer to shove his "mic" up his dorsal. When you count your gear in it all equals out. A decent bass rig cost at least or more than a FKN Marshall or Line 6 rig. Plus ever wonder why good basses cost more than good guitars. The only legitimate bitch anyone would have is the drummer. Mine has a kit that cost about 3900.00.

 

CJ

 

[This message has been edited by 5slinger (edited March 22, 2002).]

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Guys:

 

In my day job I am a CPA with my own accounting practice. What is happening here is common in any enterprise where things are not worked out in advance. In a band you are a member of a partnership in a business enterprise. Having a written partnerhip (or band) agreement only means everyone knows exactly how things are going to happen. It has to be written for two reasons:

 

1) If it is not written down "I never said that!" Written agreements keep agreements from being too variable. Some people like things to change each time you talk with them. I don't. Write it down. If it is not written down it never happened. If it is written down it doesn't change from day to day.

 

2) You will tend to agree to appropriate, fair and friendly terms for dissolution if you decide on them while you are still friends. If you wait to determine how to break up until you do break up it is everyman for himself in the jungle. Decide on things like who gets the name, rights to publishing or for the band to continue the use of music and material written by someone who is leaving the band.

 

Nobody invests several thousands dollars into an interprise (like buying PA equipment for a band) and does not expect a reasonable return on that investment. If you know anyone that doesn't think this way please introduce me to them because I have just the deal for them down here in Florida. Something to do with swamps and allogators I think.

 

Like was said before, you have let them mooch off you and that has become the expectation. It is not fair to you but you have not worried about it yet so why worry now, right? Wrong. Points in talking with the band:

 

1) The PA costs $x per night or rent a system from someone else. Your price should be attractive for both you and for the band. Like Terry said that is only fair. Anyone that has a problem with this is probably not someone who you wnat to be in business (or a band) with.

 

2) You will not charge them for the previous use of the PA which would amount to $x,xxx.

 

3) You want to address other issues in the band and reduce things to writing so there are no problems later. Reason for wanting it written down is so that everyone sees what is being done which will promote and enhance the long term harmony and success of the band.

 

If they don't agree to that you have to decide just how bad do you want to play with these guys. YMMV.

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I own pretty much all of our PA gear,maybe $10,000-12,000 invested since some was bought used. Small/medium sized club system w/about 3500 watts on subs and 1400 on mid/highs. I also own and pay insurance,etc on the vehicle to transport it to the gigs. I usually take 10% off the top for that.(doesn't cover it,but it helps)So I usually get $45-60 extra per gig. Personally,I think you are asking for way too much,but that's not my call.

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Thanks very much on the input on handling these matters. I'm pretty laid back, but enough is enough. The band started out in fun and people actually said, "We don't care about the money! We make enough at our day job." Well, come first paid gig, "friends" of the band ordered food and drinks, courtesy of the band. The $300 we were supposed to get went down to maybe $100 and the singer and his girlfriend, the keyboard player, pocketed that because they "got" the gig. HELL, WHERE'S MY $20??!! The band has touchy personalities, so maybe the trick about my "broken rig" will learn them. Or I could be a man and tell them the deal. Some of the members will agree with me and some not.

I don't compensate my bass abilities by purchasing gear. I like twiddling knobs and such. Some take it to be a power struggle, i.e. "If we get gear then we have control!!" Not to toot my own horn, but I feel I hold this whole freakin' thing together and I definitely do them a service, s***, I even have to set up some of their amps!!. Luckily I'm in another band of people who are definitely a step above and much more professional, they keep me running home to practice!!

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Hey TBL,

Yea gotta agree the kid should do like above and take a reasonable share.

As far as "hippy relationship vs for the bucks" the difference is YUPPIES.

Hipies turned into money grubbin' me first types. At least with business dicks you get it upfront.

 

CJ

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Originally posted by 5slinger:

Hey TBL,

Yea gotta agree the kid should do like above and take a reasonable share.

As far as "hippy relationship vs for the bucks" the difference is YUPPIES.

Hipies turned into money grubbin' me first types. At least with business dicks you get it upfront.


CJ

Nobody cares about the money until they get a little smell of it. Everything changes then. But ya,he definitely should get something for it and they're being pricks for not realizing that.

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Originally posted by billiam:

I just read about what people were making for gigs on the bass forum, and I was wondering what I should be getting for what I do. Here's the deal, I am the bass player and I own the PA. There are four other members in the band. We usually split the money evenly when we do play out. I know I'm getting shafted, but everyone always bitches when it comes to money. I have five thousand into PA and another three or so into my various bass gear. I want to call the PA another band member and get that cut too, I got an earfu!! Then I said, "Well, we can rent a lame PA for $100, so at least give me that!!" No way!! The people who complain the most are 1.The lead singer who owns a mike and 2.The rest who spend their money on dope and beer and cancer. They also argue that they have money into their guitar, amp etc. It's a no win with them, what should I do??!! I'm always the bad guy when I bring this up and the others can't see past their paltry B.S.

And I suppose, the same ones that complain about the money, sit there and watch while you set up the sound equiptment, and probably don't help tear down the equipment either. When it comes to PA I have ment more people with bad backs than, I care to know. Just tell them like it is,and if they don't like it, base players are hard to find, anyway, it'll be their loss! Denny

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Originally posted by Stingray5:

Originally posted by billiam:

I just read about what people were making for gigs on the bass forum, and I was wondering what I should be getting for what I do. Here's the deal, I am the bass player and I own the PA. There are four other members in the band. We usually split the money evenly when we do play out. I know I'm getting shafted, but everyone always bitches when it comes to money. I have five thousand into PA and another three or so into my various bass gear. I want to call the PA another band member and get that cut too, I got an earfu!! Then I said, "Well, we can rent a lame PA for $100, so at least give me that!!" No way!! The people who complain the most are 1.The lead singer who owns a mike and 2.The rest who spend their money on dope and beer and cancer. They also argue that they have money into their guitar, amp etc. It's a no win with them, what should I do??!! I'm always the bad guy when I bring this up and the others can't see past their paltry B.S.

And I suppose, the same ones that complain about the money, sit there and watch while you set up the sound equiptment, and probably don't help tear down the equipment either. When it comes to PA I have ment more people with bad backs than, I care to know. Just tell them like it is,and if they don't like it, base players are hard to find, anyway, it'll be their loss! Denny

I mean Bass players not base oopsss
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Just spotted the trend. Bass player. Owns PA. Humps the gear. Does all the techie s##t.

Yup. It fits. But I'm the one with the "bad back" and even our female vocalist can park her chin on my head! All seriousness aside, I buy equipment because, along with tools, they're my adult "toys" now that I have given up airplanes and motorcycles. Our band is really good about toting, setting up, striking and packing. We all have chores we do to make each other's lives easier and do them without being asked. I feel lucky because there is nary an "ego" to be found amongst us all. It's an egalitarian setup-we all are open to learn from each other and if not welcome, at least accept graciously feedback that what we just played, well, sucked. We all have other friends in local bands where there is continual friction and see how that can destroy the group. For some reason, and I think I'm the only one in the band that grasps it, we make far better money playing in the "boonies" than we do in the "city". It's more laid back and the crowd is more appreciative that we are there and they don't have to drive as far. In the city (we have two universities and a community college) there are always bands that will play for beer and bar owners more than happy to oblige. In their defense, the young musicians are actually very good...it's just that there are too bloody many of them willing to play for next to nothing. Ah. Carrabelle, FL...a quaint little drinking village with a fishing problem...

My apologies for the ramble...the Guiness is particularly fresh tonight!

 

Kim

 

[This message has been edited by thunderpaw (edited March 22, 2002).]

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Thanks again for the support and comments. I'm not offended by anything you said MrKnobs, but you do pose a valid point. I know of a drummer who is definitely good, but his personality is ZERO. He bought tons of goodies, but no one wants to play with an A-Hole. BYRNES, the bond among the members is made of smoke and beer, but I am in it to play music not hang out and kill brain cells. I can do that in the comfort of my own home!! The band I'm in plays too many Dead tunes and has this "We are SO COOL" attitude. Smoking lots of dope and wearing tie die does not make them good. Image is their thing. I used to be setting up the PA and they would be like "Where can we hang this tapestry? The lights!! The lights!! We need LIGHTS!!!" How about smoking a good does of reality! I'm ranting on now about the BS, but two of the members are on my wavelength and I feel like sticking around to play with them, of course, one is my drummer,the other is lead guitar. Who knows, we could branch out by ourselves. 5SLINGER, I'm not a kid either, I'm 28. FUEL TRUCK, I live 30 minutes north of White River Junction which is on the New Hampster border. The next time that someone says that they got a paying gig, I've decided that 15% for the PA would be fair based on what 5SLINGER says and if they give me the "NAY", I'll still be nice and give them a couple phone numbers to call for them to get their own PA.

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Just a couple more thoughts on the subject. How much do you have tied up in the PA gear and are you responsible for getting it to the gig? Did you have to get a special vehicle just for this purpose? One thing to consider is that the companies that rent out equipment do so with the intention of making a profit,not just to break even. IMO,you should be asking a bit less than rental amount for this reason. I think a lot of band members would have a bad feeling if they thought another band member was attemting to make money off of them. I think if you could somehow show some kind of amount that was breaking even and your fellow members could see it that way,it might be a different story. At least if they were fair,they would. Just my opinion. The key is trying to make them see that you aren't trying to fatten your wallet on the deal.

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I used to play in an AC/DC cover band with a 17 YO bassist who could play slap bass like a madman and belt out Bon Scott "all night long" all night long. He'd never been in a band before and didn't have two dimes to rub together. When he did get some money, he'd blow it all on video games and cigs.

 

I rented him an old but decent P-Bass I had plus a Peavey/Music Man bass rig. I charged him $50/night for the rental. The other band members thought this exorbitant, but I really didn't want to rent my stuff to him, and I did want him to have some incentive to buy his own gear as soon as possible. When I suggested that they get together, buy him a rig, and let him pay it off with time payments none of them wanted to do that. In the meantime, Peter just kept blowing his gig money and never did buy his own gear.

 

We played around 2-3 gigs per week for about 3 years. He must have paid me around $15 grand rent on that bass rig and it didn't bother him at all. The bass and amp were pretty much trash by the time the band broke up. Peter was just happy to play and not interested in financing stuff or worried about money.

 

I wasn't trying to make money off him, just trying not to lose it and trying to get him motivated to buy his own gear. Didn't work.

 

Terry D.

 

------------------

Attitude... is audible.

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I'm definitely not trying to fatten my wallet at the expense of the band. At 15%, an average $300 gig would net me $45 for the PA and then the band would split the $255, five ways to make it about $51 per member. We would each be paying $10 to rent a decent PA. The cheapest PA rental deal I saw is $100 a weekend for a powered mixer, speakers, mics. The way I see it is that for the price of a pack of smokes and a six pack, they would be getting hooked up pretty good. The money wouldn't even come out of their pocket!! Some bars even give free booze!! Besides gardening, my other hobby is music. All my spare money goes towards equipment, not some habits that I have to maintain. Heck, I'll buy a new piece of gear and they give me the jealous stare. What they don't want to see is that their smoke and booze habits cost them maybe $40 a week on the low side. Multiply that times 52 weeks in a year and whammo $2000 easy. Add in their weed habit and the numbers increase a lot more. S***, they'll spend $80 for a quarter of weed that is gone in a week, but they won't buy a mike stand or cables. We used to rent some equipment when my PA wasn't going to cut it for a gig, i.e. larger amps, extra speakers, etc. You'd think is was easier prying a hunk of flesh out of a lions mouth when I told them that I needed X dollars off the top to pay for the rentals!!Besides the money issue and their drugs before music attitude, I'm going to stick around for a while until their actions force me to look for something else!! Sorry about all the ranting and raving, but you just got to release somewhere, and it is always nice to get support from others who have been in my shoes or can offer advice without personal attacks!!

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Billiam,

Stick to your guns. Like I said above figure one decent driver blows tell them it'll take 2-3 nights at 15% to pay for this. Lose your board or a crossover or power amp and your playing for free for 3 weeks.

Good luck.

And I meant the "kid" thing in a literary sense. I'm 42 my kids are getting close to your age.

 

CJ

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Part of my deal with my guys: If a guy is bringing a piece of gear in for collective use, he's responsible for assuring that it's in good working order. If anything used collectively blows/breaks/lets its smoke out, or otherwise needs repair, the band pays for it as a group. Same deal holds with us for any piece of gear used collectively--dimmers, drivers, diaphragms, bulbs, vehicles.

 

We also have a "no gaff, no cardboard" rule. Any gear held together with gaff or patched with cardboard must be repaired before it is used again (actually had a youngster guitarist who tried to convert an open back single 12" cab to a closed back by gaffing a sheet of cardboard over the back).

 

Mic stands and cabling are purchased collectively. We consider these consumable items, which I just buy as needed and charge the band for. This way, we're assured of sufficient fresh mic cords and decent stands (a cheapo boom stand will last 2-3 years with us, unless a drunk falls on it).

 

Phil

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Just tell the lead singer it is his responsibility to buy the PA. What the hell, the guitarist spends a wad on his gear, the bassist cough up a pile of cash on his, the drummer sells a kidney on ebay to pay for his kit, and the lead singer walks in with an SM58? Bah! Imagine a bassist showing up for a gig without his amp!

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