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Piano Pickup


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I always thought that a boundary field mic attached to the lid (closed) would be a great application, but I've never heard from someone who actually tried it. Maybe even two of 'em for stereo! I have a Shure SM91A laying around gathering dust, but I don't have access to a 9' grand piano to try it on.

 

D

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This past weekend I did sound for Lucy Kaplansky. I don't know if anyone has heard of her, I hadn't but she was excellent. She is a folk type singer and did some acoustic guitar songs and some songs with piano. I used a PZM at the back of the piano under the cover with the cover on the low stick to get the sound of the low strings. For the high strings I used a C414 on a boom angled from the side toward the middle about 6 inches above the top front. The sound was excellent and I got many complements on how the piano sounded. I forget what eq I used but you can just use whatever sounds best. I hope this helps.

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Since the PCC is semi-directional (asymmetrically hemispherical to be more exact) it doesn't work as well with the lid closed, since the back entering sound as mechanically combined with the front pattern to get the directional characteristics and the result in a closed lid set-up is not great.

 

With the piano at a low stick (or higher) the results improve.

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  • 3 weeks later...
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Originally posted by steelyD

I always thought that a boundary field mic attached to the lid (closed) would be a great application, but I've never heard from someone who actually tried it. Maybe even two of 'em for stereo! I have a Shure SM91A laying around gathering dust, but I don't have access to a 9' grand piano to try it on.


D

 

 

Relevant Update: Sugarfried posted the link to Shure Microphone Techniques handbook a few days ago and it addresses this very issue.

 

Peace,

D

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Originally posted by npmixmaster

My choice is either two SM91's (great for monitors and house), 2-AKG414's. or a great economical all around way to go is the Barcus Berry pickup with preamp, it's very easy to install and sounds great in house and monitors.

 

 

The Barcus Berry (and Helpinsteil) work ok for band situations, but for an acoustic setting (say solo or jazz) it would certainly compromise the natural qualities of a 9' Baldwin for sure!

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  • 8 months later...
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hi folks!

 

i am unearthing this thread because i am in the process of researching the best possible solution for micing a concert steinway. the application is dualfold. primarily it is in a loud rock type ensemble, but there are also solo and classical quartet requirements.

 

i have used the following setups to mixed success:

 

 

1) two sm57s on the short stick and wide open, with one treble mic aimed toward the hammers 1 ft deep into the piano and as high as possible with respect to the lid, and the bass mic either aimed similarly and 3 feet deep, or under the soundboard on a short boom, as close as possible to the board and tucked into the "V" of the underbracing to help eliminate stage spill.

 

tonal rating: 6.5

gain before feedback: 7

comments: easy, cheap, but not a very accurate sound and lots of equing required.

 

2) two akg 451 condenser mics in the same placements

 

tonal rating: 8

gain before feedback: 5.5

comments: mics are easier to damage, require phantom power, requires judicious EQ and still feedback looms, but the sound is pleasing at lower levels.

 

3) two barcus berry 4000xl pickups, one placed in the 3rd soundhole for treble, and another under the bass strings 2 feet deep from the hammers.

 

tonal rating: 5.5

gain before feedback: 9

comments: simple setup, can be used with the lid closed, best at being heard over the band, but the piezo brittleness and lack or rich low mids/lows fatigues the ears. pickup enclosure rattles and has a shelly sound when cranked. my two systems are currently out of order, raising reliability issues.

 

i keep hearing that akg 414s mounted on a tape bridge across the inner bracings above the strings produce the best results live, but i fear the spill and feedback at the levels we sometimes experience on stage, due to bass, e. gtr, drums, etc...

 

has anyone tried c-ducer CPS-8P systems (cducer.com) or schertler Dyn-GP systems ( shertler.com) before, or are there any other ideas?

 

thanks gang!

 

 

 

 

:cool:

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The problem here is that for a rock situation, the soundboard itself will pick up vibrations from the band's sound and add that to the piano's tone. It can sound like a muddy overtone that can't be gotten rid of with eq.

 

How about a Yamaha CP-80 or something like that for the rock gig? The other option is a good quality (pro level) electric grand.

 

I like 414's better than 451's for piano, and mic just inside the bridge rather than the middle of the sound board or hammers.

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Originally posted by mentoneman

i have used the following setups to mixed success:


1) two sm57s on the short stick and wide open, with one treble mic aimed toward the hammers . . ."


2) two akg 451 condenser mics in the same placements . . .


3) two barcus berry 4000xl pickups, one placed in the 3rd soundhole for treble, and another under the bass strings 2 feet deep from the hammers. . .


. . . or are there any other ideas?

 

 

I've been taught that the structure of a grand piano is such that the open lid functions as a reflector. Both of our main pianists (Peabody graduates at Master's and Doctoral levels in piano and conducting) insist that the most lifelike reproduction comes when a cardioid mic is pointed towards the middle of the soundboard. If using one mic, put it on a boom inside the open piano and point it perpendicular to the lid about two-thirds the distance of the lid's width from the lid. If using two mics (the preferred method) put them in an V configuration with the heads perpendicular to one another. Center them on the lid from inside. We have excellent results with both of these methods using SM-57's, though the two-mic version is best.

 

The Preacher

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Originally posted by Preacher Will



I've been taught that the structure of a grand piano is such that the open lid functions as a reflector. Both of our main pianists (Peabody graduates at Master's and Doctoral levels in piano and conducting) insist that the most lifelike reproduction comes when a cardioid mic is pointed towards the middle of the soundboard. If using one mic, put it on a boom inside the open piano and point it perpendicular to the lid about two-thirds the distance of the lid's width from the lid. If using two mics (the preferred method) put them in an V configuration with the heads perpendicular to one another. Center them on the lid from inside. We have excellent results with both of these methods using SM-57's, though the two-mic version is best.


The Preacher

 

 

For recording, solo piano and classical perhaps, but add bass, gtr and drums to the stage sound (your question) and the "classical theory" falls apart.

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as versatile as 57s are, they only capture a small slice of the big pizza, even when stereo micing.

 

by comparison the 451s breathe much more realistically and reproduce the low warmth with added life. wider spectrum and better resolution.

 

yet the large diaphram would do better still in this regard...

 

a mic i am very impressed with is the shure ksm 27. i used it for a classical guitar live and was stunned by the sweetness of highs and feedback rejection.

 

comments?

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Originally posted by mentoneman

as versatile as 57s are, they only capture a small slice of the big pizza, even when stereo micing.


by comparison the 451s breathe much more realistically and reproduce the low warmth with added life. wider spectrum and better resolution.


yet the large diaphram would do better still in this regard...


a mic i am very impressed with is the shure ksm 27. i used it for a classical guitar live and was stunned by the sweetness of highs and feedback rejection.


comments?

 

 

With a rockin' back line, the 451, 414 etc may not be ideal due to bleed and excessive bandwidth. Often, there are better tools for the job (in that context) that do not seem ideal by themselves. The 57 is one of those, though definately not my choice for solo piano for example, will work better in a band situation.

 

I would look at other keyboard options personally, like a Yamaha CP-80.

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I don't have anything new to add on the microphone/pickup choices, except that I don't like the BB pickups at all.

 

One really useful tip, though. If you're getting a lot of low-frequency feedback, switch the microphone polarity (nicer boards have a button, but you can make a couple XLR cables which swap pins 2 & 3 if needed). Makes a big difference in some situations.

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Originally posted by Scodiddly

I don't have anything new to add on the microphone/pickup choices, except that I don't like the BB pickups at all.


One really useful tip, though. If you're getting a lot of low-frequency feedback, switch the microphone polarity (nicer boards have a button, but you can make a couple XLR cables which swap pins 2 & 3 if needed). Makes a big difference in some situations.

 

 

i agree my ears have grown weary of the BBs...

i have run the afforementioned setups in and out of phase as well, again with mixed results...

 

and i do recognize the overall effectiveness of the 57s. perhaps the answer lies between the lines...there is no one easy solution.

 

maybe for rock it should be one barcus and one 57, and for the classical it could be the 451s.

 

i REALLY prefer the lid on the full stick, and a player who isn't afraid to strike the keys!

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Time to bump this thread back to life...

 

So the Yamaha baby grand at the folk club has one of those Barcus-Berry pickups, which I've always hated. Recently I took the bold step of attempthing to find the installation directions, since it doesn't seem right at all that the pickup is mounted on the harp. Sure enough, it's supposed to be on the soundboard. So I need to find some of that special Barcus-Berry adhesive tape and try it on the soundboard.

 

Any comments on where to locate the pickup?

 

I've really gotten interested in getting a good live piano sound, so tomorrow on an off night we're going to have a little piano micing session to come up with a recommended-for-newbies setup. Plus I'm going to test my newly built stereo mics, one of which already has already done a successful show inside the piano.

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yes mounting the barcus on the soundboard is recommended---precisely where is kinda left to the ears and discretion of the engineer, versus the 2nd or 3rd soundhole they suggest.

 

i have fallen into the routine of one barcus on the treble side, and one 451 over the bass/low mid string section, on a boom stand, slightly higher than the edge of the lid.

 

i roll off the horrid frequencies which seem to leap from the barcus (350-450hz and 3.5-4k) as well as knock off some 12k. to me the barcus has a shrill "capsule resonance" eminating from the enclosure surrounding the pickup element.

kinda honky and "tinky" sounding. but the gain before feedback and cut in a mix is important.

 

maybe i'll try my dbx 376 tube pre/comp with it to soften the quack some...just thought of it...

 

with the 451 i low cut it to approx. 100hz and dig out some of the boominess at 200-400. but set properly you can capture a great deal of the steinway magic and roar.

 

paramount to his system is the judicious setting of the input gain sensitivity at the console's channel.

 

unlike other instruments where i try to set the ppm squarely into the yellow, i strive to keep the piano channels at a conservative input unity and push the fader past unity if i need more steam.

 

this seems to neutralize the ill effects of the barcus and 451 effectively.

 

and i always return only the barcus into the monitor, not the 451, to avoid feedback.

 

aloha.

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Well, I'm not surprised at all by my latest discovery: The Barcus-Berry preamp for their piano pickup is a piece of crap. So far I've mucked about with 2-3 different preamps from different eras, and all were basically half-assed designs.

 

In this case, the input impedance is apparently 2.2M. Not bad, but for a piezo pickup you often want something even higher. I've got a little DIY buffer I designed which does around 8M, and for upright bass it can make a huge difference. I'd brought the BB piano pickup home tonight just because I was suspicious about the preamp, and I was right - it's just a very basic phantom-powered DI with a couple extra bells & whistles. With the pickup stuck to the top of my acoustic guitar I tried a few different combinations, and the best results were my piezo buffer feeding a regular (in this case an EWI active) DI. Just the EWI by itself wasn't too bad either, but I could hear some of the mismatched-impedance piezo sound.

 

I think I'm going to just donate a piezo buffer to the folk club and suggest use of a regular DI. The pickup will still need to be blended with a mic, but I'm hoping to stick it

on the underside of the soundboard near the bass-side bridge and use it to fill in the bottom. Supposedly this pickup is designed to prevent feedback via the soundboard, so it might prove useful.

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I ended up modding the Barcus-Berry preamp with a little single-FET circuit, basically my usual piezo buffer stripped down and tweaked to get power from the preamp.

 

It'll be a while before I can try it on a show, but I dropped by the folk club, reinstalled, and listened through a wedge. Sounds much better!

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