Jump to content

Coaxial for wedges?


Recommended Posts

  • Members

I am revamping some small wedges that have a 19" by 17" baffle. I have been considering using either coaxial 15's or a 12" and horn setup. I have no experience with coaxials and was wondering if they present any unique problems - more difficult feedback control, etc. Any advice would be appreciated.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Originally posted by Audiopile


I dunno though: If everyone thought co-axial wedges are as good as I think they are, then they would be a lot more popular than they are. Obviously I'm missing something, but I don't know what it is?

 

 

Possibly high freq coverage patter. and limited horn options, especially crossed over low.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Originally posted by agedhorse



Possibly high freq coverage patter. and limited horn options, especially crossed over low.

 

 

 

check the specs on the PAS TOC monitor wedges....they use a 15" co-axial set-up,, and from experience,, I can say,, they DO have some serious output......I think the HF driver is a 2" !!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Originally posted by Audiopile



It's really fun to have good enough wedges and side fills where-in right after the first song many bands I've worked with, the talent's going..."uh...could you maybe turn my monitor down a little bit?...it sounds great...just maybe turn it down a couple notches?"

 

We used 8 of the PAS wedges,and used a pair of TOC 2.2 for side-fill..., and yes,, you're right. When the monitors are exceptional, sometimes you DO get asked to "back them down a bit".......heavy rock and rolllers have a very strange look on their faces when they are the ones doing the asking!!!!

 

:eek:

 

:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I have been searching for coaxial monitors on the internet for an hour. What I've found out is that, aside from Radian's Microwedge and the PAS products discussed above, there really isn't anything out there. Certainly nothing for the weekend warrior bar band (unless you count the Fender 1270 - and I don't).

 

So my question is, with Selenium offering a 12 and 15 coaxial and at a good price point (mid $100's), why hasn't anyone, big or boutique, made a coaxial stage wedge for "the rest of us"? Small, moderately priced and smooth are pretty much what we all want, yet I can't find a single offering.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Originally posted by abzurd

I have been searching for coaxial monitors on the internet for an hour. What I've found out is that, aside from
and the PAS products discussed above, there really isn't anything out there. Certainly nothing for the weekend warrior bar band (unless you count the Fender 1270 - and I don't).


So my question is, with Selenium offering a 12 and 15 coaxial and at a good price point (mid $100's), why hasn't anyone, big or boutique, made a coaxial stage wedge for "the rest of us"? Small, moderately priced and smooth are pretty much what we all want, yet I can't find a single offering.

 

 

 

the PAS monitors are compact, rugged, and not really all THAT expensive...especially when you take into consideration the performance factor......they ARE within the reach of the "weekend warriors" if the warrior wants to get pro performance stuff with reasonable capital outlay...

 

lots of the weekend warriors are playing $3000-4,000 guitar and bass-drum rigs,,,, why not get the "good stuff" for the SRO as well?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Unless the pricing I found was unreliable, I have to disagree. Few "weekend warriors" are gonna spend $1500 a piece for wedges. What bar band is toting around $6000+ in floor monitors?

 

It seems that the Selenium equivelent could be sold around $300 for an OSB constrution and less than $500 for birch or synthetic cabinets. I'm just surprised that someone hasn't designed such an offering since there seems to be absolutely nothing "prebuilt" around, yet there are moderately priced raw components available.

 

I gotta think something like this could be priced near the Yamaha Club and EV MI+ grade wedges, and yield comparable, if not better performance in a smaller footprint.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Originally posted by abzurd

Unless the pricing I found was unreliable, I have to disagree. Few "weekend warriors" are gonna spend $1500 a piece for wedges. What bar band is toting around $6000+ in floor monitors?


It seems that the Selenium equivelent could be sold around $300 for an OSB constrution and less than $500 for birch or synthetic cabinets. I'm just surprised that someone hasn't designed such an offering since there seems to be absolutely nothing "prebuilt" around, yet there are moderately priced raw components available.


I gotta think something like this could be priced near the Yamaha Club and EV MI+ grade wedges, and yield comparable, if not better performance in a smaller footprint.

 

 

do any of the Selenium co-axial speakers use a 2" HF driver? THAT's the secret of the PAS HD Pro stuff,,,,,you don't need the extended frequency response of a sweet 1" driver,,, you need the balls to the walls performance and output of a 2" driver to keep up and maintain robustness......that's the whole advantage in a nutshell of using the 2" format drivers,,, you'd have to try pretty hard to be able to blow a 2" driver in ANYTHING,,,not that it hasn't been done.... :eek:

 

:D

 

even the JBL 2" hf drivers are around 500-600 each,, and the PRO-Audio spin-offs are 300.....not cheap,, but effective...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Originally posted by abzurd

Unless the pricing I found was unreliable, I have to disagree. Few "weekend warriors" are gonna spend $1500 a piece for wedges. What bar band is toting around $6000+ in floor monitors?


It seems that the Selenium equivelent could be sold around $300 for an OSB constrution and less than $500 for birch or synthetic cabinets. I'm just surprised that someone hasn't designed such an offering since there seems to be absolutely nothing "prebuilt" around, yet there are moderately priced raw components available.


I gotta think something like this could be priced near the Yamaha Club and EV MI+ grade wedges, and yield comparable, if not better performance in a smaller footprint.

 

This may be of interest to some of you, maybe not...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=23786&item=2505112884&rd=1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I myself use IEM's. The biggest downside is that even if convince everyone to in your group to buy them, if you change players you have a problem. Also I've had issues with my PSM400's and have had to resort to wedges at times. You can't really go without a backup plan if you are using wireless anything. Our current set up is a mix of wedges and IEM's.

 

My only point in this thread is the question of why nobody has made a moderately priced, small coaxial. I see MoosBros point, but Selenium makes a 12 and 15 coaxial for less than $200. I would think it's gotta be competitive with other MI offerings and it would seem to have size, and at least some performance advantage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

Originally posted by abzurd

I myself use IEM's. The biggest downside is that even if convince everyone to in your group to buy them, if you change players you have a problem. Also I've had issues with my PSM400's and have had to resort to wedges at times. You can't really go without a backup plan if you are using wireless anything. Our current set up is a mix of wedges and IEM's.


My only point in this thread is the question of why nobody has made a moderately priced, small coaxial. I see MoosBros point, but Selenium makes a 12 and 15 coaxial for less than $200. I would think it's gotta be competitive with other MI offerings and it would seem to have size, and at least some performance advantage.

 

 

actually, there ARE other choices in coaxial raw speakers besides Selenium. PAS has a lower priced line of coaxials, McCauley does too(I think), and I'm pretty sure I saw some on the Bema website.. there may be others.....

 

the SRO shop I used to work at sold 4 PAS 12" coaxs to one of our employees...he built his own wedges...I can't remember if those were 1" or 2" HF drivers on them,, he made them up to be 2x12"s,and I am thinking that there was only one coax per box,,,, but they were VERY compact...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

I have been working on a 1" version of a co-axial, but with compact size comes limited low end. I have had to go to a sealed box since I couldn't get a reasonable tuning on that small of a vented box without serious linearity problems and phase anomolies around 125-150Hz. These rendered the ported design mediocre, but with processing the sealed box shows some promise.

 

I really prefer a 1" driver for highs in almost any moinitor because of weight, sound quality and ease of design. I also choose the LF driver to give extended response and linerity up to about 1.5-2k so that any x-over point is higher than the middle od the vocal range. This gives me the most natural sound and still gives reasonable efficiency and pattern control. Most co-ax HF horn flairs must be crossed over pretty high by comparison to a dedicated (and larger) flair due to their mouth size. That's why the co-ax shows some promise. Target price is something along the lines of $600 street price for a 15" version and $500 for a 12".

 

Co-ax speakers have been a traditionally hard sell, but I'm not entirely sure why. Radian's micro-wedge is a great product, PAS's is also very good, but larger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Originally posted by Audiopile

1" v.s. 2" in a co-axial wedge


Personally, I believe in wedges a 1 1/2" compression driver is the best choice.


The 1" is a-ok fine for lower power stuff and smooooth response.


The 2" is just too big, expensive, heavy, and typically pretty darn harsh if pushed hard.


The 1 1/2" is just right for R&R or blues. Still fairly smooth, but will cut through nicely.

 

 

the 2x12/coax box if I remember correctluy,, he used 2" throat HF drivers...EV DH1 is what they were......same thing we used in our PAS TOC big system....

 

 

we had the EV DH1's in all of our tops,,AND all the wedges..

 

they never sounded harsh at all,,, because there is no way you can have a 2"HF driver in a wedge and push it hard, and it be at a useful volume... it would be just wayy too loud.... as Long as I worked there, we never blew a HF diver in any of our boxes,,,,,, we DID lose twelve 15" mids though,all at one gig(we think),, we never quite figured out what happened to cause that... damned death metal... :rolleyes:

 

:D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Originally posted by Audiopile


Goes to show what I know. I was unaware that EV ever made a co-axial driver. They don't seem to make them anymore. I wonder why they dropped them? Maybe it was in the early days of the Mark IV accusition of Gauss and EV dressed up the Gauss 3588, 3288 and 3285's with EV stickers? If so, that would explain a lot...in-that they were phenominal co-axial drivers but insanely expensive. The only thing is, the largest diameter HF throat available in the Gauss was 1"... far as I know anyway.

 

 

to clarify in the state of confusion....

 

the HF driver was an EV,, the coaxial speaker itself was a PAS... it accepted any 4 bolt 2" HF driver.....:eek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

The problem I find with 2" drivers is that the diaphram resonates in a very unflattering frequency range due the the physical size and mass of the diaphram. It is part of the rock and roll "edge" that some with diminished hearing seem to prefer though. It's also a quality that I don't like in a wedge that's pointed only 6 feet from my head!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Originally posted by agedhorse

The problem I find with 2" drivers is that the diaphram resonates in a very unflattering frequency range due the the physical size and mass of the diaphram. It is part of the rock and roll "edge" that some with diminished hearing seem to prefer though. It's also a quality that I don't like in a wedge that's pointed only 6 feet from my head!

 

 

surely you speak of the JBL "razors edge" frequency response...they have that characteristic bump in the midrange that they mistakenly call "presence".. I call it annoying as hell..

 

the EV DH1 is a MUCH smoother sounding 2" HF driver...... :eek:

 

:)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Originally posted by agedhorse

If I recall from past testing, the DH-1 rolls off pretty quickly past about 12 or 13k???

And from listening to them. You really need something on top of them or the system sounds pretty dull,IMO. I am another person that really doesn't like 2" drivers for close field monitors. Maybe for side fills.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Originally posted by Audiopile


The DH1A I assume? Maybe?


If so, I'm mildly curious how they bolted the compression driver to the cone driver?


Were both 12's in the wedge co-axials?


By the way: a pair of 2206's and a 2425 on a potato masher is about my favorite wedge outside of co-axial wedges.

 

they close-couple to the BACK of the magnet structure of the speaker...the horn lens is semi-permanently attatched to the front..there's a 2" diameter hole that goes all the way thru that is actually the back of the horn thoat that lines up with the exit on the HF driver..

 

no,, if I rememeber correctly, only ONE of the 12"s was a coax,, the other was a straight 12"....making it a 2x12/2"HF monitor wedge......BIAMPED,,, it kills..... :eek:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...