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Soundman as band member


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I've posted this on other forums, also, for a croiss-section of opinion:

 

I've always felt that modern "music" players were the most unmusical musicians when it comes to dynamics. Everyone plays at one volume (usually too loud) all night long. Hearing and blending with the other musicians is just not known.

 

Well, I (the band finally agreed) made our soundman (a SHE, really) a full member of the band (she plays a Mackie). She comes to all the rehearsals, knows all the songs, and now does live panning, effects, MIDI switching, etc. She even takes too much low end out of a piano preset if needed, etc.

 

The benefits are astounding. I can't believe I will ever allow some "house" sound person to run the band. How can they? I can't see paying someone to sit there and simply control feedback. Our mix is now musical and produced. Having re-listened to some other local bands again, they sound very unpolished and inconsistent.

 

Musical groups still need conductors, regardless of the genre.

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We've done something similar. We have a guy running our sound that is pretty knowledgable. He just started a few weeks ago. He's definitely not the best guy that I know but he's willing to work for a cut of what the band makes. He is also not the best monitor tech in the world but he can make the FOH mix sound good. I really can't complain. He's getting better and better, he's willing to do what it takes and he's cheap. If it keeps getting better...we keep him. If it get's worse we gotta loose him but right now, it's all good.

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if you can find a sound engineer who is dedicated,, and GOOD at what they do, and willing to work for a cut of what the band is making,, then you are one lucky son-of-a-bitch...... most sound guys(and GALS) usually easily always can earn MORE than any band member alone in your average bar-gig band...

 

I know when I was doing it full time, I usually got paid more than any of the opening bands as a whole, except for maybe the headliner...

 

I could never figure out how or why most of the bands were even gigging,, they were LOSING money !!! :eek:

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Originally posted by thunderpaw

"our sound man is member of the band.... in fact, he's me - the bass player


i hate running sound from the stage, tho "


+1!!

Kim

 

 

I hear you,, and I feel your pain.... as I am forced to walk the same walk myself...:(

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Originally posted by MoosBros

if you can find a sound engineer who is dedicated,, and GOOD at what they do, and willing to work for a cut of what the band is making,, then you are one lucky son-of-a-bitch...... most sound guys(and GALS) usually easily always can earn MORE than any band member alone in your average bar-gig band...


I know when I was doing it full time, I usually got paid more than any of the opening bands as a whole, except for maybe the headliner...


I could never figure out how or why most of the bands were even gigging,, they were LOSING money !!!
:eek:

 

Abso-damn-lutely.

 

Whenever a band starts talking that "we consider you a member of our band" crap I head for the door, 'cause I know they're about to try to talk me into taking an even cut and that is NOT gonna happen! :D

 

Sometimes I work for free, but I never, ever work for an even cut, unless it just happens to work out that way by chance.

 

If you think that sounds harsh, consider this: can you think of any band that suddenly hit it big and then continued to give their soundguy an even cut?

 

Let me know when you think of one... :D

 

Meanwhile, I got to get my dime NOW, 'cause later ain't happenin'...

 

Terry D.

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The only band I would consider doing that with was the old college band 20-something years ago... but that's just purely for fun. We are all still really good friends too, that's not too typical.

 

I second Terry's comments... I usually get paid more than any opening act and I work a whole lot more dates than they do too. There's no fame and glory being a technical services provider when compared to being on stage performing... that's what money is for!

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Originally posted by melancholy mechanic

our sound man is member of the band.... in fact, he's me - the bass player
:D
:D


i hate running sound from the stage, tho
:(
:(

 

Yep, I'm just about to start doing that now.

 

I may have to get one of the guitarists playing bass for a song or two as a soundcheck and then take over myself. (3 guitarists, myself on bass and a singing drummer).

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Wait ... Agedhorse, MrKnobs ... remember when you started? There's still room for a kid to work and learn by doing.

 

I distinctly remember when I realized that mixing consoles were "vertically oriented."

 

Of course, it all went downhill from there, because I took gigs that paid more as a sound tech than I made playing guitar. ;)

 

It hasn't changed. The two techs who travel with the two bands that played tonight made $75 each. As house tech, I sat around watching amp indicators and made nearly $200. The five-piece headliner was paid $3500, and the opener divided $600 among six.

 

I like being able to carry a pair of headphones into the club and walk out before the bands are finished packing. $200: Thank you!

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So how come all the bands I see, pro or otherwise, don't sound any better now than they did 25 years ago? With all these high-paid "technical" wizards there is no improvement.

 

Ozzy's son makes a lot of money, too.

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Bass player:D , Soundman:D Put them together and:mad: !!

I like doing one or the other but not both!! I personally would rather mix than play, but to see the girls getting wild, groovin' to my basslines, you just can get that from behind the board.

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Our sound guy uses our equipment. That way, he don't have to lug a ton of gear in. I help him set it up. I also try to share the wealth, if a chic flashes me........ I try to get her to do it for the Drummer (cause he's way in the back) and the sound guy too. For me, it's kinda like a humanatarian effort. :D

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I think that 25% of the (pro) acts sound really good, sound engineers that really "get it". These guys have approached this as a profession, read and learn and study some more.

 

50% do a passable job, not bad but not great. These guys are still better than 20 years ago, in part because the equipment is better and the standards in general have improved. It's pretty tough to screw up (really bad anyway) on an EAW, Meyer, V-DOSC or Vertec rig.

 

25% really suck big time... usually it's not just their sound skill but also their general ability to get along within the scheme of an entire production.

 

For the local-regional scene, it's probably 10%-50%-40% from what I have seen, and that's also an improvement over 20 years ago.

 

And... the guys who get paid really well are those in the top tier.

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A few years back, I was in a very busy bar band and we had 2 guys who worked for us. One was a mule/ light roadie, and one spent months learning how to handle the P.A. system. We would take our pay-out and split it 5 ways and they split the 5th mans share. Everyone was happy and we(the band) could wind down for 5 or 10 minutes while those guys packed up the mixer and put guitars in cases. Plus, if an obnoxiuos person started making trouble, we had enough muscle to handle it. Those 2 guys became integral members of our group and worth every dime we ever gave them. The sound man can make or break you. That person needs to be a part of the organization.

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>>>>>>

If you think that sounds harsh, consider this: can you think of any band that suddenly hit it big and then continued to give their soundguy an even cut?

 

 

by and large you are right on the money. The Grateful Dead (Dan Healy) is one exception, Phish (Paul Languedoc) is another, and I believe Pink Floyd kept the same sound guy from the beginning of their career for many years--not so sure about that, any one know of any other exceptions.

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Eddie Offord. He had an association with Yes, ELP and others. I don't know the details but he was integral with Yes.

 

Besides, if nothing has been done this way before, why are musicians so afraid to try something new? Many musicians claim to be be politically "progressive". It's hilarious that they are musically "conservative".

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Originally posted by paostby

Eddie Offord. He had an association with Yes, ELP and others. I don't know the details but he was integral with Yes.


Besides, if nothing has been done this way before, why are musicians so afraid to try something new? Many musicians claim to be be politically "progressive". It's hilarious that they are musically "conservative".

 

Some bands do hold on to a particular soundman, feeling he's an integral part of their sound. Most are more pragmatic, realizing that once you have a hit record there are any number of great soundmen you can afford, and all will make you sound good. If you don't realize this on your own, the record co. will point it out to you in a way you can't ignore.

 

First record contract I had (don't ask, let's just say I/we got screwed) the guy from the record co. minced no words telling us the following: (1) black guy on bass sings his ass off, let's get him inked immediately, rest of you are expendable - who writes the songs again? (2) your soundman sucks, fire him, we'll send you another one, (3) rock stars don't wear their hair like you do (meaning me, personally), we'll send you to a place in Houston for a makeover before the video, (4) whole band needs a new wardrobe, we'll send somebody over to arrange it, (5) clear your schedule & gigs, we'll take care of that from now on.

 

I'm ashamed to say we just did exactly what they told us to without question, including firing the soundguy who was with us for a long time. Good thing they didn't have "dump your girlfriends" and "get a face tattoo" on the list. :(

 

However disloyal it may or may not be, paying the soundman an even share with the rest of the band becomes unrealistic and bad business at some point, and I seriously doubt it has ever been done once the band has solid chart success. I don't doubt that some bands take good care of their sound man financially (I was in that situation when I worked country) but there's no way any soundman is worth as much as a successful artist, just as a startup band is usually not worth the same pay as a good soundman.

 

Roger Nichols comes to mind, but I somehow suspect his substantial pay still falls short of Fagan and Becker's share, though, if anyone deserves it, he does.

 

After all, if not for him, we'd still think it impossible to polish a turd. :D

 

Terry D.

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The bottom line is that it is a business. If you don't handle it like a business, you'll never be respected. The people that loose sight of this, or never understand it at all, usually get walked on. I think that we can all agree that most soundmen don't stay with the band when they get a deal. The odds are usually greater for an agent to come in and say to replace the soundman with "their guy." They all have people that they network with. We're in a slimy business. When money gets involved and the stakes get a little higher it's usually big money. Especially for an agent or a promoter. It cost's money to run a band and when you get good, they will pay you well to compensate you for it. We got lucky. Our sound guy is not the best that I've ever worked with but he can get the FOH mix sounding good enough that everyone is happy and that equates to repeat business. Besides that, he grabs a new guitar for me when I break a string and re strings that old one. I can't ask for more than that......can I?

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A couple of comments...

 

Not all band members of a national act get an even cut.

 

The band Cake kept their original sound guy after they made it big. He's still with them on their national tours... but he also road manages them too. Not all bands are dis-loyal, just a lot of them!

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From what I've seen this post seems to be saying that having your own soundman is better than the house guy who knows the sound system inside and out. Now I am just a bouncer starting to learn sound, I've worked in a recording studio also, so I have do know whats going on. But enough about me, alot of bands that have come through my club, have their own soundmen and I'd say that about 10% do a better job than our house guy.

 

For example Messhugah's sound guy kept accidently turning off the stage stage left speakers, CKY's guy red lined everything until the house soundman had me threaten to give him a severe beating unless he backed off, as well as a number of local bands soundmen that our house guy refered to as "fader jockeys". Thats just a few of the stories.

 

On the other hand the only bands that had an absolutley amazing sound were Static-X and Asesino. The rest were either below average or just average.

 

I've been in a band that had our own soundman and since everyone was friends with him they said he did a good job but I never heard anyone outside our circle say it amazing. Just my view, no offense to anyone says different.

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I wish that bands wouldn't tour with their own sound techs. I wish that instead, they would tour with a "producer" who tells the system engineer when to hit what cues. Similar to a recording situation, where the engineer is the "knob guy" and the producer calls the shots.

 

The idea of handing over control of a coupla hundred thousand dollars worth of gear to a person with limited experience is absurd, and this industry is the only place it happens.

 

"Hi, I'd like to rent a bulldozer for the day ... No, I'll operate it ... Yes, I have experience: I own a lawn tractor."

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Originally posted by grachuss

From what I've seen this post seems to be saying that having your own soundman is better than the house guy who knows the sound system inside and out.

 

 

No not quite. Having your own COMPETENT sound guy is better than having an INCOMPENENT house guy, but having your own INCOMPENENT sound guy sucks just as bad or worse.

 

In general, INCOMPENENT just plain sucks, and this is what the discussion is all about.

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Originally posted by RickJ

I wish that bands wouldn't tour with their own sound techs. I wish that instead, they would tour with a "producer" who tells the system engineer when to hit what cues. Similar to a recording situation, where the engineer is the "knob guy" and the producer calls the shots.

 

 

I think in a live situation that would be much too slow. In a studio, most decisions aren't made in real time, you get as many shots at it as you need (and can afford). Plus, it's quiet enough to actually have a conversation in a studio control room.

 

Your point about the house engineer is well-taken, though. You're absolutely right that it's difficult for even an experienced engineer to step up to a club system he's unfamiliar with and not make mistakes given the usual short period of time there is to get briefed on it. Most board and setups are fairly familiar to me, given how many clubs I've worked over the years, but there is always the unfamiliar console or hook up once in a while.

 

For this, I must always rely on the house engineer, so you can bet I'm courteous and friendly from the start. I need him to tell me exactly how things are set up, what channel has what in it, which AUX goes to what effect, and any problems the system is currently having. I haven't worked too many clubs where every single thing is working, and everyone hooks things up a little differently. All too often, there are no labels or there's bad info on the scribble strip. I'll usually bring a short rack of my personal gear to patch in, and it's a lot faster if the house tech helps me out rather than I work behind the console with my maglite in my teeth.

 

The other concern that was mentioned is the qualification of the band engineer. We all know it runs the entire spectrum from "sound god" to "irritating idiot," and there's no label on our forehead to tell you which we are. Though God knows it becomes apparent pretty quickly once the soundcheck starts.

 

I don't know the answer for that one. You'd expect a successful band to bring an experienced easy-going sound guy with them, but that's not always the case. About the only thing the house can do is provide their own guy for assistance, and rely on him to provide the appropriate amount of "guidance" once he assesses the band guy. This may range from sitting back and admiring to head pounding in extreme cases. It's always a good idea to have a limiter up in the amp rack that can't be tampered with.

 

Speaking of which, I worked a big dance hall that had their "brick wall" limiter behind a locked plexiglass panel, though strangely it was in the FOH rack. I don't have anything against that, but this one was set ridiculously low. I finally reached around and pulled out the sidechain jumpers from behind, which put me back in control and thoroughly baffled the floor manager. He even asked me, "How are you able to get it so much punchier than the other bands?"

 

I told him, "I have a pretty good understanding of how compressors work." Which was pretty much the truth.

 

Terry D.

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