Members dirtyragamuffin Posted June 25, 2003 Members Share Posted June 25, 2003 Hi all. I've done a bunch of research but at any rate, I'm starting to look for a new console to pull both project studio and recording duty...I realize this is hardly an ideal way to approach it, but to justify the expense I want it to be just as versatile as possible. This means nice, clean pres, musical EQ section low noise, lots of channel options--switchable phantom power on channels or in groups, direct outs on all channels, lots of inserts, 6 or 8 bus (preferrably 8), ability to flip channels etc. I want to be able to have I/O for recording and then FOH and monitor duty for live if possible. Something that has or accepts a meter bridge is a huge plus. Admittedly this console will likely spend plenty more time in the project studio than out gigging, but for the money I'd ideally like this board to do as much as possible. 16 channels would barely be enough, 24 would be better, and the ability to axpand and add channels later would be great, though I'm assuming no frame at this price point will be able to do this? I'm thinking the budget is "aorund" $2K and I can't justify going over $3K, so considering my budget I'll be looking for used (and taken care of) consoles. The Allen&Heath GL3300 looks promising spec wise, though pricey for what I've got, and I've heard something about reliability issues. Can anyone elaborate? also Crest and Midas Venice are in consideration, though at this price I don't think Crest offers what I'm looking for. Can anyone recommend a good place to buy used consoles, particularly online unless you know a good place within a few hundred miles of Oshkosh, WI... I was going to get a very nice pre and a couple channels of good compression for the studio, but we realized that we need a competent mixer before we add more outboard gear, and that the benefit could be felt in live sound work as well, making it a much more worthwhile expenditure. We're not professional in any way nor do we expect to be. We do, however, plan to upgrade our studio as needed and I'm looking at this mixer as something to grow into. Thanks in advance for the help, and please do be blatanly honest--if you think I'm going about this the wrong way completely, then say it...I could an ass kicking of needed DR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 25, 2003 Members Share Posted June 25, 2003 If you want to keep compact, the Crest XR-20 (16 mono) or 14 mono and 2 stereo or any combo from 12 mono and 4 stereo all the way to 16 mono. Stereo inputs are dual XLR and are mic/line switchable. Great sounding consloe, VERY quiet, good reliability record and rack mountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted June 25, 2003 Author Members Share Posted June 25, 2003 Originally posted by agedhorse If you want to keep compact, the Crest XR-20 (16 mono) or 14 mono and 2 stereo or any combo from 12 mono and 4 stereo all the way to 16 mono. Stereo inputs are dual XLR and are mic/line switchable. Great sounding consloe, VERY quiet, good reliability record and rack mountable. much thanks for the reply! I'd taken a good look at those XRs...they look nice though smallish, missing a few "bigger console" features that I'd really like, but I'm certainly keeping them in mind, especially considering what I've got to spend. Incidentally, wha't the MAP on them? all I can find are list prices. I've also noticed there's not even a trace of crest or midas mixers on ebay, and the A&H stuff seems to be GL2200's or mix wiz. probably a good thing considering how skanky ebay seems to be getting I'd been considering heavily modding my Kelsey, but realized that it wouldn't work for all the crazy schitt I'll end up doing with a new desk. Besides, the Kelsey is a great bar console! Thanks, and keep em coming Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted June 27, 2003 Author Members Share Posted June 27, 2003 Also looking at the allen&heath GL2200 24-channels...fits into my budget and looks like it's got some versatility....I'm curious what you all have to say about the reliability of these. I've heard mixed things- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 27, 2003 Members Share Posted June 27, 2003 Originally posted by dirtyragamuffin Also looking at the allen&heath GL2200 24-channels...fits into my budget and looks like it's got some versatility....I'm curious what you all have to say about the reliability of these. I've heard mixed things- Mixed results. They're British after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted June 27, 2003 Author Members Share Posted June 27, 2003 Originally posted by agedhorse Mixed results. They're British after all! LOL I hear that...I'd guess the same with Soundcraft? I'd not considered them so much since I really have heard very mixed things, though there are a few boards that might work for me. Sadly I've also been considering Mackie 8-buses, they're really cheap used, have the recording configuration I'd be into, and easily expandable....but then I've really never cared for mackie, and something with a higher resale value appeals to me..also more rider friendly, if that issue were to come into play. It's tough to plan for what *could* happen in the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 27, 2003 Members Share Posted June 27, 2003 Buy once and cry once? (sorry Phil!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 27, 2003 Members Share Posted June 27, 2003 You know that Crest was originally Kelsey... you had good luck with Kelsey... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted June 27, 2003 Author Members Share Posted June 27, 2003 Originally posted by agedhorse You know that Crest was originally Kelsey... you had good luck with Kelsey... I did...still do. In fact if the thing had lotsa inserts and four times the aux/bus routing, I'd be using that. As far as the mackie stuff, buy once cry once was what I was thinking. I was mainly waiting for someone to say "don't bother" so I didn't feel like the elitist brand nazi that I am J/K I'm also open to recommendations on lesser known makes of boards...but so far the allen & heath GL3300 look sthe best and the GL2200 looks like the best mix of price and performance...however I'm concerned about reliability, and I'd really miss the meter bridge to be honest... I do like the bigger crest consoles, but the price thing is jus too much. The XR line would be easily within my budget, but I'm thinking they're not quite up to what I'm looking for (I'll check the specs again). Can anyone compare the Midas Venice to the allen&heath GL line, interms of reliability and more important, sound? The bigger venice boards out a bit out of reach to be honest, but who knows, I could get a deal....I hear the Venices are made for Midas by a different manufacturer...are they still worth the dough they command? BTW agedhorse, do happen to know where I cold find a deal on Crest mixers? (I'll also still be inquiring about some Kelsey parts sometime...if I have cash left after the new console, we'll be in touch ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J the D Posted June 27, 2003 Members Share Posted June 27, 2003 Crest and Allen & Heath mixers are available from one of this forum's regulars at: www.audioeast.com While there are some Yamaha products that might fit into your budget I don't think you'll be able to touch a Midas. The A & H products have had their problems but so has just about everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 27, 2003 Members Share Posted June 27, 2003 Originally posted by dirtyragamuffin BTW agedhorse, do happen to know where I cold find a deal on Crest mixers? (I'll also still be inquiring about some Kelsey parts sometime...if I have cash left after the new console, we'll be in touch ) E-mail me and I will get you a price. I am a dealer. agedhorse@aol.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted June 27, 2003 Author Members Share Posted June 27, 2003 Originally posted by J the D Crest and Allen & Heath mixers are available from one of this forum's regulars at: www.audioeast.com While there are some Yamaha products that might fit into your budget I don't think you'll be able to touch a Midas. The A & H products have had their problems but so has just about everyone. Well...I've seen used Venice 320's for around $3500 and GL3300s as well...that's close to my budget, though really about 500 or so too much, but that's why I've been pursuing them. For about $3k I need the console, couple hundred worth of cables and some repairs done to our computer which won't be so much. Let's put it this way, if I found a Venice used for 3K i'd strongly consider it, though its routing abilities, like the Crests, fall a trifle short of what I'd *really* like. That said, I'd sacrafice some versatility for a better sounding and reliable board. I'm still having a hard time getting much feedback or info on the Venice stuff, LOL I keep finding websites on them that aren't in english! Thanks for the link; I'd been on audioeast already, actually. The new consoles that are in my reach right now are the Crest XR24 or the AH GL2200 24...everything else I'd of course be looking to buy used. I'm making features and sound take somewhat of a priority over the cost at this point in my research--if spending more would be really, really worth it, then I'd do it, in other words. I'm starting to regret putting $2K in my subject heading, because I'm relatively flexible to be honest. I do think that going over 3K would be a bit much for the projects I'd be using for (low-budg project studio, and occasional live work)...but then, either of these jobs *could* get more serious in the next couple years...frankly, I just don't know yet...but I do know that we're at a point where we do want to start upgrading a bit All the advice so far is greatly appreciated guys, you're helping me pare down my options--please keep it coming! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members billiam Posted June 28, 2003 Members Share Posted June 28, 2003 Souncraft spirit live 8. Eight buss, meter bridge etc. $3000 ad up depending on how many channels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted June 28, 2003 Author Members Share Posted June 28, 2003 Originally posted by billiam Souncraft spirit live 8. Eight buss, meter bridge etc. $3000 ad up depending on how many channels. I'd been wondering about the Spirit 8's...I've read some pretty mixed things...what do you like about them? Good sound, good flexibilty? Reliable? Have to admit right now I'm looking carefully at the Allen&Heath GL series. I'd really like a used 3300, but the 2200 is much easier on my budget. Wondered about a comparison of these to the Souncrafts...what makes this a tough decision is that I'm trying to find a board that can easily pull recording and live, but will be reliable. So far it's pretty daunting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted June 29, 2003 Author Members Share Posted June 29, 2003 Well I just typed a big edit to the above post, then HC got all snippy and erased my post...guess I took too long to type and it logged me out, taking my post with it So here I go again, at any rate I've been looking into the Spirit 8 some more, but aside from audioeast and the Soundcraft website (not the most impressive site IMHOFWIW), searches take me right to a purple plastic behemoth which niether looks nor is priced like what I'm looking for, that is, the Spirit-8, in 24-channel frame, has standard meter bridge, "UltraMic+" pres, 6-aux, four group, 10x2 matrix, and so-on. So my question is, can anyone give me differentiatons between what I've just described and the aformentioned plasticky purple box. I know there must be some forum members who use the Live 8's, and I'd like to hear their thoughts...also those who bought a different console over it It looks like I could have one for a bit over $3K...well where can I find B-stock...is there a good place to go to for that? 'Cause if I could have one for under $3K, that would be mighty swell. And since I'm already typing, I must say that I've gotten really caught up in the whole "must get best sounding, versatile, and not-totally-trash console possible!" thing...but I got to thinking, in this class, would it be reasonable to say that any difference in sound and build quality would be quite subtle? I mean, would I notice an audible difference in, say, the GL3300's pres and EQ over the Spirit 8 or GL2200? My guess is no, and please correct me if I'm wrong. Is it more fair to say the differences in these mixers, and their prices, lie in the frame and bus configurations and routing options? In terms of the GL2200 vs. 3300, am I mainly paying the extra grand and a half for the extra couple aux buses, more versatile routing, and that big purty analog VU bridge, or will the cost reflect sound and build quality as well? Like I said before, I'd pay more for a notably and justifiably better board, but if it's little details...then I won't worry about it. It's not like I'm talking a $3,000 mixer compared to a $70,000 after all! So I know I'm running this into the ground, but there are so many options, it is kind of confusing to me and a big purchase to boot! Don't wanna screw it all up, if you can dig it! I have to admit that this forum really helps me understand what gear belongs in what niche, and it helps me understand what will work best for my broad needs, both now and in the future...so any fedbakc is again very much appreciated. I'll shut the f*ck up now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drumtech Posted June 30, 2003 Members Share Posted June 30, 2003 I'd look at the Midas Venice... I have the 320 and the sound is outstanding. The routing is simple and similar to other small format mixers. As for the rider freindly feature of the boards listed, IMO, none of the models listed including the Venice, will be very acceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted June 30, 2003 Author Members Share Posted June 30, 2003 Originally posted by Drumtech As for the rider freindly feature of the boards listed, IMO, none of the models listed including the Venice, will be very acceptable. for a small club of 200 or 300 hundred people, I think they'd do fine around here. In my area, what else is around is pretty much mackie. I'm not and never will be a pro sound contractor, but would be nice to have something to offer my occasional services or rent out if I ever had to. Thanks for the advice, I do hear very good things about the Venice mixers--ever had any problems with yours? best- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drumtech Posted June 30, 2003 Members Share Posted June 30, 2003 I've only had mine a few months... No problems whatsoever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members billiam Posted June 30, 2003 Members Share Posted June 30, 2003 I'm a small fish too with a Soundcraft Sprit live 4/2 16 channel. I feel that it's got a ton of features for the $1700. Not many boards in that price range with dual mid sweeps, phase invert, Matrix, etc. I mostly need up to 16 channels and if I need more I rent. Solid quality too, each pot is nutted, the strips don't do the "wiggle" when you grab a knob. Also each strip is a separate PC, the Midas Venice is not, I believe. But from what I hear the Midas is way above in sound quality, and so is the price. A&H GL2200 might be good to because if can be used as a monitor board. I went thru the same process and decided of the Soundcraft for Features/sound/price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted July 1, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 1, 2003 Thanks for the help, everyone. Well I've checked into all the above mentioned consoles as well as some Yamahas and others. At this point I'm into seriously considering the Allen & Heath GL3300 24, http://www.allen-heath.com/gl3300.asp and the Soundcraft Spirit8 24, http://www.soundcraft.com/products/spirit8.html Both look like they're a good balance of price/performance and versatility, with some key features I'm into, and it looks like they'll do what I want or need, for better or worse. Only thing that stops me is price as new, and reliability issues for both of them. British consoles...damn...well when they're sounding, at least they're sound good I'm also still trying to find used examples of either of these in the configuration I want...and I'll tell ya, it's a real bitch! If anyone's used one or both consoles and can help me compare and contrast, that would be very cool! Best- DR BTW Andy, do you deal in other mixers besides Crest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 1, 2003 Members Share Posted July 1, 2003 Originally posted by dirtyragamuffin BTW Andy, do you deal in other mixers besides Crest? Not much anymore with all the on-line hyper-competition. By the time I work out all the details, I make just a few bucks. Therefore, I deal with Crest and Yamaha, but the Crest X4 or X8 is WAY outside of your budget and the Yamaha in your budget is not so hot anymore. Sometimes I get a good used console in, but I usually have customers drooling for one of our refurbished boards since we will sell them with a 1, 2 or 3 year warranty if the pricing is right and the quality is there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted July 1, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 1, 2003 Yep, I'd pretty much found that I can't come close to a large format Crest unfortunately, and I did look into Yamaha mixers around $3K but wasn't so impressed. I've pretty much got it down to the A&H GL3300 or the Spirit8, so if you or anyone on the forum happens across something along those lines any time soon, feel free to drop me an e-mail. My only hope for either of these consoles locally is Full Compass, or my local music store is an AH dealer...though I won't hold my breath on a good deal there. What I'm figuring is that if I could find a GL3300 for under $4K in good shape with the PSU and the necessaries, I'd likely go for it. Choosing between the two is definitely tough though--the 3300 is more versatile and more costly; the Spirit has nice metering, what I'm told is a very nice EQ, could still do what I needed albeit definitely not as smoothly as the AH, and the price is more favorable. It's a tough choice, especially since I've gotten fairly little feedback on them. I have a doctor appointment in Madison tomorrow and perhaps I'll stop in at Full Compass for quotes...one thing I haven't had yet, though, is an in-person look at these bad boys, and I don't believe FC (or any other place anywhere near me) would have these in a showroom. Somthing's really unsettling about spending three or four large without twiddling the knobs and kicking the tires first If anyone has anything to say about experiences with either of these consoles, again I'd really, really like to hear it--also from a servicing point of view: what goes wrong with these most, and how hard/costly are they to fix? Thanks again and again -DR P.S. Would anyone be able to give me an idea of what I should expect to reasonably pay for used examples of either of these? I've had a hard time figuring it out! P.P.S. Would you all agree that getting a versatile live-oriented console to pull live AND multitrack recording duty makes more sense than getting a recording-oriented mixer to do the same thing? Something in a Soundcraft Ghost isn't out of the question, and frankly it WILL be in the studio more than out to a gig. I just figure if I'm putting down the money, I'd like it to be able to multitask! Does this make sense? I'd not want to haul an Amek Big out to a club, for instance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audioeast Posted July 1, 2003 Members Share Posted July 1, 2003 Check in with me before you make a decision...I deal with crest, A&H and Soundcraft and I'm sure you would qualify for the HC discount he he Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members billiam Posted July 2, 2003 Members Share Posted July 2, 2003 If you are going to record, keep this in mind. On the Soundcraft, I believe, the direct out is post fader and the A&H is pre or at least switchable. Pre is the way to go. Example: Guitars are too loud (as usual) so you don't even put them in the mix, on a post fader Direct out, you get ZERO, on a pre fader, you just set the input with the PFL and that is what goes to the recorder. You might want to check this, very important for these reasons. I am in the process of getting the Live 4/2 16 channel, but am a bit iffy because of this fact. What makes it hard is my local distributor will finance the board, but doesn't carry A&H. I'm still debating..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted July 2, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 2, 2003 Originally posted by billiam If you are going to record, keep this in mind. On the Soundcraft, I believe, the direct out is post fader and the A&H is pre or at least switchable. Pre is the way to go. Example: Guitars are too loud (as usual) so you don't even put them in the mix, on a post fader Direct out, you get ZERO, on a pre fader, you just set the input with the PFL and that is what goes to the recorder. You might want to check this, very important for these reasons. I am in the process of getting the Live 4/2 16 channel, but am a bit iffy because of this fact. What makes it hard is my local distributor will finance the board, but doesn't carry A&H. I'm still debating..... Very good points, although I was referring to studio recording...but then, live recording certainly isn't out of the question, either. I believe the Spirit 8 allow you to select between pre/post direct outs--I was reading the user's manual online and I think I recall seeing that. I'm really leaning towards the GL3300, it just seems like it's got more routing options, overall, and I think would be a more suitable multitrack studio mixer--for a live sound oriented mixer in a studio setting, on my budget, I think it's the way to go. There's a good chance one will be on its way to me by the end of the week Pretty much my only hesitation now is the reliability factor. I figure any mixer will crap out, whether it's british or not...and since mine won't be out on the road too much getting battered around in a van, at least not in the near future, I'm less worried about intermittent connections and the like (If I'm doing a bar gig, I'll take my Kelsey since I can afford to have it out of commission should something happen). Also I wish it had metering on the bridge for each mono channel rather than just the groups and master section, btu that's not so important compared to other factors. We'll see what happens... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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