Members agedhorse Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 Since I listen to live music an awful lot, and have over a lot of years, the last thing I want to do is either listen to music on my off hours or even play music. I work with mostly great bands, far better musicians than I would ever have been, so it's really easy to get burned out on your own playing. Besides, it playing never came easy to me but mixing and building/installing sound systems (well) is a "piece of cake". So, I chose the path of least resistance many years ago and, like a few others out there, climbed the food chain of the national act circuit. I have found over the years that I can mix just about any band (other than metal, thrash, punk, rap, hip-hop) dead-cold and deliver a soild mix with almost no efffort at all, but couldn't sit as a player and even stumble along. I also know players who can sit in and do the same thing... but couldn't mix their way out of a paper bag if their life depended on it. Is this THEIR path of least resistance too? I just sat down at the piano today and played a bunch of stuff out of the real book that I hadn't played for quite a while. Made me think about others who may be in the same position as I am... love music but don't play much any more, or who can sit in and play with anybody but putting together a mix on the fly in front of a crowd just won't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlackBelt Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 Same here. I quit my 'loser' band a couple months ago, and haven't missed playing a bit. But I would like to mix more...I feel your quandry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MoosBros Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 I am more of a musician first, and a sound tech by default(SOMEBODY has to do it)... I've always had an intrest in anything audio,,, and my lack of true professional experience would be easy to detect by any pro audio engineer...I have been lucky to have truely screwed up on ly a couple of times in my life when at the console.... on the other hand,,, back in my drinking days,playing country music,,,well,, I really would rather NOT remember some of that.... These days,, I can play very well if properly rehearsed,,, and I can do a good mix if I'm familiar with the music,, but I'm not good at hooking up and understanding all those different signal paths, mix matrixes and stuff on big systems... .... (and I've got terrible tinnitus, so I can't hear much above 2 or 3K) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted July 13, 2003 Moderators Share Posted July 13, 2003 I've (mostly) quit being a soundman and have gone back to my roots as a player. Needless to say I've taken quite a pay cut! Thank God money isn't an object anymore. I was originally a moderately successful musician who talked some money men into letting me open a studio on their dime. I never thought the project would make any serious money, I just wanted a free place to rehearse and record. But as Andy and anyone else who's been self-employed will testify to, you tend to say "yes" to anybody who's holding out a handful of money, at least if you don't want to starve. Lyin', cheatin', and stealin' are the three job skills I bring to any job I work. My partners and I schemed up a record promotion that made us 10s of thousands of dollars back when that was some real money, then promoted dozens of live shows and made even more money. Country bands, even national acts, often didn't tour with soundmen in those days, and I found myself mixing for some pretty famous people, though I didn't follow country and had no idea how big or small any of them were. One thing led to another, I got picked up by one national (country) act after another, and I became intimately familiar with the inside of tour buses and the highway going by in the window. I took the path of least resistance and followed the money. It's pretty exciting mixing really large shows and festivals, but it's not the same as playing. I knew I should quit when I found myself seriously hoping some amps would blow up at a show so I'd have something interesting to do. I'd have quit at some point, but the straw that broke the camel's back was getting hooked up with one of the other engineers, a bright young lady that I spent countless hours talking to on those interminable bus trips. She decided we should get married, and shortly thereafter that riding around on buses was no way for married people to behave. I did local and nearby shows for a while, then talked my way into a research job at the university which became a career. Like Andy, running sound comes easier for me than playing. I'm a lazy SOB and all that practicing stuff is not much fun. Too bad you have to do it a lot if you don't want to suck! Seriously, I LOVE playing my guitar, but there just doesn't seem to be enough time in the day with job, family, household chores, etc. But now I'm at a point in my life where I don't need to make money playing, and close to the point where I don't need a day job at all. That changes everything. I can finally do whatever I want for a living and not worry about how much it pays. Now, I just have to get past that LAZY thing... Terry D. P. S. I'll KNOW I've arrived when all these great players who accept me as a soundman don't make "that face" when I tell them I play. You know, the face we all make when, for example, the drummer says, "Here's a song I wrote...." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 13, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 Originally posted by MrKnobs You know, the face we all make when, for example, the drummer says, "Here's a song I wrote...." Yeah... "trust me... it's a REALLY good song"... I've heard it before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 I still play, thanks to a friend who's a really good songwriter but realistic about the music business - we all have day jobs in that band, but manage to record a CD every couple-three years. (www.nickstrange.com) I also find the sound engineering side of things easier, but I consider my musician experience invaluable in being a better engineer. The more instruments I play, the better sound I can get, mostly because I know what the instruments should actually sound like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tommy Tune Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 In my case,I'm not too sure if it is the path of least resistance. For me it's all about what I'm passionate about. I'm more of a player/vocalist. I live to perform. It is an addiction. I'm constantly doing things to tweek what we do as a band. I'm always looking for ways to make better transitions into a song or looking for better materieal. Part of the reason that I got into trying to figure some of this SR stuff out was a need to make the performance a better package. You can be the best band in the world but if your gear sucks or your mix sucks............you're gonna sound like you suck. So, that brought me to this site. I'm not super techy but it's a never ending quest to make it all as good as I can get it. I guess that one can't live without the other, for me. I want to know as much as I can about both of them......the sound end and the performance end. I think that they have to exist together. I look at it this way.....................the more I know about SR...........the better musician I'll become. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 Well, I can't say I'm really an engineer at this stage. I'm still on the beginning of the path I started buying up PA gear a few years back (when I had a day job) for two reasons. 1. I was interested 2. I wanted to get into a band, and I though having a pa would be a really good first step (instead of becoming a good guitarist ). It never helped me to get into a band, playing bass did. I am still primarily a musician, but I am just starting to use my PA in a band situation. Me and a friend set it up (it is partially his pa as well), and he runs it during the gig. He gets most of the PA money (a cut from the band - not the full on money that a dedicated sound guy gets). I'm going to work on running it from time to time as well. In time he will stop running it and I'll work on running it from stage . Hopefully, as I get better I can afford to make the PA better and get decent money to run sound - but I will still be primarily a player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tommy Tune Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 P.S. I'm not technically an engineer. I just decided to throw my 2 cents in because it was 4 in the morning and I just got home from a gig. What else do you do to wind down at 4 A.M.? Damn.....I love this site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 Well, even at 23 I know some musicians who are phenomenal players but couldn't run gear worth a darn. I know someone who is a brilliant guitarist and classical musician as well (oboe). He can write and arrange orchestral pieces but couldn't put a sound system together. I'm sure he could learn, but he's much more into the music than the gear. I also know a guitar player who is in his late 50's and has been in some very successful bands in the midwest. Great player in his niche, but still someone who doesn't understand that it's not good to use and instrument cable as a speaker cord. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted July 13, 2003 Members Share Posted July 13, 2003 I got into mixing out of necessity: In 1980 or so, a band I was in broke up and I wound up with the entire tri-amped PA, monitors, mics, cabling ... and the remaining payments on the $10,000 loan. I had to rent it out or lose it. I finally got out from under it by merging it into a local (west Florida) soundco, which created a job for me. From there, things just happened, and I wound up working for larger and larger companies until a career change in 1988 into video production. Jump forward 13 years and I'm back to my second love: live audio. The first love, playing guitar, is again on hold. Until things got busy for the summer in the sound biz, I played my geetars in a "hobby" band about three times a month. Three horns, female vox, bass, drums and me. Tower of Power, EWF, Chicago and other 70's R&B/horn-band stuff. I also fill in once a month or so for the very busy guitarist of a band that plays old Motown material. They're getting quite popular with the happy hour crowd. The gear consists of a 1967 Gibson 335 (purchased new with my paper-route money), a 1999 off-the-shelf Fender AmStd Strat, a 1982 Gibson Victory, a 1980 Washburn A/E, and a Fender HRD amp. (A small combo amp with a single 12 that only gets loud in the audience if it's mic'd.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kennykeys Posted July 14, 2003 Members Share Posted July 14, 2003 Wow, Mr. Knobs, Now there IS a switch. Back to a musso. I noticed you're posts have been fewer. Nice place to be. I envy you as a working stiff to finally reach a point where some of the economic pressure is off. So kick back and enjoy, man. Don't worry about that "lazy" stuff. Every man deserves to be a bit lazy if the opportunity affords itself, especially after working all their lives. Congrats, good luck, and be comfortable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted July 14, 2003 Moderators Share Posted July 14, 2003 Originally posted by Kennykeys Wow, Mr. Knobs, Now there IS a switch. Back to a musso. I noticed you're posts have been fewer. Yeah, well, it's a crazy idea. We'll see if it works. It's a lot of fun so far, anyway. I need one more year with the state to retire. Unfortunately, what I do is funded by grants so I'm always scrapping for money. Tomorrow morning I make my final pitch for next years' funding, and then I'll find out if I have a job next year or not. It's this way every year, but this year funds are scarce because of the economy. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 14, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 14, 2003 Originally posted by MrKnobs I need one more year with the state to retire. Unfortunately, what I do is funded by grants so I'm always scrapping for money. Tomorrow morning I make my final pitch for next years' funding, and then I'll find out if I have a job next year or not. It's this way every year, but this year funds are scarce because of the economy. Terry D. I know this first hand as well, CA is now paying the price for some incredibly stupid decisions made a few years ago, plus some general illegal dealings that it chose to be held hostage by. Soft money work is always a risk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jmaurer88keys Posted July 14, 2003 Members Share Posted July 14, 2003 I am a musician first (this always came easy to me!) However, I've logged numerous hours behind the console ever since I was in junior high (almost 20 years ago now). I've discovered that many people who get that gigue often are not enough of a musician to even know what a good mix is. Sure they can eliminate feedback, know who/what is on which channel, understand effects loops, etc., etc., etc. I feel that I know what a good mix sounds like, but am not always able to achieve the desired results. (I like to blame this on the equipment, but more than likely it is also coupled with ignorance:) ) I have GREAT appreciation for those seemingly few individuals who have the technical ability, musical ability, and work ethic to make REALLY FANTASTIC soundmen. In my life I think I've only known two. (Of course - a good mix is a largely subjective issue, affected by personal taste and hearing accuity - which, unfortunately seems to diminish with age + years in front of loud music) I have appreciated your experience, wisdom, and apparent love of the craft, Agedhorse . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dirtyragamuffin Posted July 14, 2003 Members Share Posted July 14, 2003 Originally posted by agedhorse I know this first hand as well, CA is now paying the price for some incredibly stupid decisions made a few years ago, plus some general illegal dealings that it chose to be held hostage by.Soft money work is always a risk. Yup, I hear that. Wisconsin is pretty well in debt and they've spent the year just cutting funding left and right. I keep getting letters from the university explaining how my tuition's going up and they're implementing all these new fees due to the budget problems. At the same time, campus organizations are getting the axe and yet the chancellor is still cooking up all these schemes for grandiose new campus buildings and projects. They've got to stop and smell the coffee! I'm glad my term as Program Director for the campus radio station is up and I didn't run for Station Manager for next year. I'd not want to deal with the budget the next couple years! Dealing with allocations was already enough of a pain in the ass! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 14, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 14, 2003 Originally posted by dirtyragamuffin Yup, I hear that. Wisconsin is pretty well in debt and they've spent the year just cutting funding left and right. I keep getting letters from the university explaining how my tuition's going up and they're implementing all these new fees due to the budget problems. At the same time, campus organizations are getting the axe and yet the chancellor is still cooking up all these schemes for grandiose new campus buildings and projects. They've got to stop and smell the coffee! That's pretty much exactly the same story with the university I am affiliated with... no money but lots of new and EXPENSIVE buildings! Suudent fees skyrocketing, faculty and staff being squeezed etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J the D Posted July 14, 2003 Members Share Posted July 14, 2003 Originally posted by agedhorse ... no money but lots of new and EXPENSIVE buildings! Suudent fees skyrocketing, faculty and staff being squeezed etc. Unfortunately, many times the enabling legislatin that raises the money specifies what it can be spent on. we have that problem with some of our gasoline taxes we collect in Florida. They were established to fund the buildings and can not be used for ioperations. The flip side is that a lot of colleges are bursting at the seams (at least around here) and the new construction does not keep up with the demand for space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 15, 2003 Author Members Share Posted July 15, 2003 I agree, communication skills are sorely lacking in many young adults. I would rather see more people get a good BASIC education rather than 1/2 get an excellent one and the rest get a poor one. The difference between a good basic education and what's happening to many (not all) average students is disgraceful in a country of opportunity such as the U.S. Oh, and pardon my typing... I lack in typing skills for sure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators MrKnobs Posted July 15, 2003 Moderators Share Posted July 15, 2003 Originally posted by Audiopile 5) A "masters" is all but required for any professional career, 21 years total. I have one student who has been here for 8 years. Two on his master's, 6 on his PhD. He finally graduated a few months ago so I hired him. He's happy as a pig in poop, and where would I find anyone more experienced and familiar with the job? At one point, the university informed me he could no longer be a graduate research assistant as his time had "expired." I had to hire him as a part time engineer to keep him on the payroll. Terry D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loves_LPs Posted July 16, 2003 Members Share Posted July 16, 2003 Amen, Mark - we are raising a generation of functionally illiterate students. We have lots of curriculum "enrichment" but very little meaningful content. When there is no demand for measureable performance, people goof off - look at the failed economy in the former USSR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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