New PA challenge

[jprintz31]

Preacher Will has inspired me with his PA challenge. So, I would like to propose a new challenge. My band is looking to purchase a new PA. We have monitors, mics, a mixer and an 800W amp. We need to run drums, bass, two guitars, and three vocals. We are a modern rock cover band, and we are looking for a system for small bars.

 

Your budget is half of the preacher, $1500 (o.b.o).

 

 

(We have been looking at 12 or 15 cabs, 15 or 18 subs, amp for subs and a crossover, but I am curious as to sizes, models and ideas of what others think would be ideal. There is a lot more knowledge here than what I have.)

[tlbonehead]

 

Originally posted by jprintz31 Preacher Will has inspired me with his PA challenge. So, I would like to propose a new challenge. My band is looking to purchase a new PA. We have monitors, mics, a mixer and an 800W amp. We need to run drums, bass, two guitars, and three vocals. We are a modern rock cover band, and we are looking for a system for small bars. Your budget is half of the preacher, $1500 (o.b.o). (We have been looking at 12 or 15 cabs, 15 or 18 subs, amp for subs and a crossover, but I am curious as to sizes, models and ideas of what others think would be ideal. There is a lot more knowledge here than what I have.)

Not asking for much,eh? Does your current mixer have enough channels to support everything?It looks like you will need two power amps in addition to your current one,or one large one. You need to power mains and monitors as well as subs.

It looks like you need.......

A pair of subs

A pair of mid/high cabs

Power for both

Crossover

EQ for mains and monitors

Some sort of effects

 

I'm thinking used. Anyone else?

[rickkreuzer]

With your budget, you'd better be patient and watch places like Ebay or local pawn shops. I'm not too sure what you can get for $1500.

 

I guess first off, I'd get mains. That'll pretty much blow your entire budget if you get decent ones. If you settle for used, you may be able to squeak in a cheapo amp to run your monitors off of. I'd try to use your 800 Watt amp that you currently have for your mains if possible.

 

Rick

[flanc]

I agree with the folks who've already responded. As a half-step, Get a pair of Yorkville NX50P powered speakers and some speaker stands. Save your bucks for subs when you get another $2K.

[abzurd]

How's this for an obscure solution......

 

Cerwin Vega V-35X x 2

 

This is the only place I see them for $400. Everyone else sells them for $800 so there must be a catch. Never heard them but have some experience with CV and it's good value for the money. Generally plywood cabinets, and decent components. Usually for the price you get OSB or MDF and chinese crapola. They must get you with shipping these 110 lb beasts. Also you would have to fashion some sort of stand to put them on (like a bunch of concrete blocks).

 

You won't get the thud of a true sub I'm sure, but if you biamp I gotta think 600W going into a front load 18" is gonna get you something, especially for a small club. The claim of 32HZ has to be down 10 dB, but if it can hit the low 40's down 3 dB's that's pretty good.

 

So $800 plus figure $100 to ship. There's $900. That leaves $600 for an amp. Problem here is ideally you'd biamp(500-600W to the woofer and maybe 100W or so to the mid/high) . An amp big enough for the woofer will blow up the mid/highs.

[jprintz31]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile I swear...one more of these and I'm gonna do it: Go to the guitar forum and pose the same relative question: "I need a performance grade guitar and stageamp. I play guitar in a modern rock band and we're fixin to start playing clubs. What can I get for $200? (Is there a pick-up and a $100 processor I could hook my Stella up to and sound like SRV?) $15K will purchase an "ok" modern rock club PA. You want to spend $1500? For what little I know on the subject: possibly $2K will purchase an "ok" performance grade guitar and combo amp? If so, then I want "that" for $200. For "modern rock in small clubs (200 cap or so), assembling a PA that will effectively cover drums, bass, guitars, and vocals... without sounding like a loud/distorted telephone, your $1500 budget will purchase one (or possibly two) suitable subs (no power). FWIW: Last fall I sold a local small club (85 max legal cap) some decent double 18 subs at my dealer cost (purchasing 40 units) of $700 ea. This club does "modern rock". These two subs are 1000 honest wrms ea. and 105dB efficency. The two of them powered right up to snuff (1500 honest watts ea.) are completely suitable for the job, but by no means are gross overkill (they've only managed to blow them up once...so far... in about 9 months... and admitted they lifted the limiting when they blew them up cause the BE wanted a little more thump).

 

 

So what you are saying is that every cover band that just plays on the weekends for fun, maybe 15-20 weekends a year, has to spend $15K on a PA system. C'mon. All I need are two subs, two mains, an amp, and a crossover. We have everything else. (eq, mixer, effects, mics, etc.). I would hope that I could spend less than $15K. I guess I can, but we apparently would not be able to sound good in front of 100 people.

 

We have more than $1500, but I wanted to see if anyone had ideas on how it could be done. Kind of a best bang for the buck. I also thought that someone may have knowledge of a brand that might be less expensive, and still have good sound. All you guys ever talk about are Yorkville and Yamaha Club series (which I am still not sold on). Just thought someone might be creative.

[jprintz31]

Originally posted by tlbonehead Not asking for much,eh? Does your current mixer have enough channels to support everything?It looks like you will need two power amps in addition to your current one,or one large one. You need to power mains and monitors as well as subs. It looks like you need....... A pair of subs A pair of mid/high cabs Power for both Crossover EQ for mains and monitors Some sort of effects I'm thinking used. Anyone else?

 

We are all set for monitors. We all have in-ears, and we place the bass cab near the drummer with a mic so that the drummer and bassist can feel the thump on stage.

 

The Behringer crossover is only $80, so it might as well not be included in the purchase price. Basically, what is the best sytem for the money when you look at mains, subs and an amp. Can you do it for $1500, $2000, $3000, or can it even be done at all.

 

[Tommy Tune]

Originally by JPrintz So what you are saying is that every cover band that just plays on the weekends for fun, maybe 15-20 weekends a year, has to spend $15K on a PA system. C'mon. All I need are two subs, two mains, an amp, and a crossover. We have everything else. (eq, mixer, effects, mics, etc.). I would hope that I could spend less than $15K. I guess I can, but we apparently would not be able to sound good in front of 100 people.

 

You can probably figure out a way to get it done if you buy used. I don't think that anyone is being harsh. I think that they don't want you to spend your loot on something that you're going to think sucks in 6 months. There's a ton of cheap gear out ther but cheap gear usually spawns cheap results. I think that what everyone is trying to say is.....................don't expect the performance of a Ferrari if you go out and buy a Chevy Geo. The Geo may get you around for a while but it's not going to turn any heads or raise any eyebrows.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by jprintz31 So what you are saying is that every cover band that just plays on the weekends for fun, maybe 15-20 weekends a year, has to spend $15K on a PA system. C'mon. All I need are two subs, two mains, an amp, and a crossover. We have everything else. (eq, mixer, effects, mics, etc.). I would hope that I could spend less than $15K. I guess I can, but we apparently would not be able to sound good in front of 100 people. We have more than $1500, but I wanted to see if anyone had ideas on how it could be done. Kind of a best bang for the buck. I also thought that someone may have knowledge of a brand that might be less expensive, and still have good sound. All you guys ever talk about are Yorkville and Yamaha Club series (which I am still not sold on). Just thought someone might be creative.

All right,if you really know what you are doing and have time to dig around,you can probably get something pretty decent sounding for the smallest clubs in that price range. For instance(I'm not trying to sell you anything,but this is an example) I have a pair of Sonic T18 sub scoops with cast frame Eminence drivers in good shape that I would sell for about $475 for the pair. I also have a pair of American Audio APX152's that have only been used a hand full of times that I would sell for about $275 for the pair. That makes $750 bucks,leaving the same amount for power ,crossover,and whatever else you need. EQ,effects? Get about 800-1200 watt total to the subs and about 600-700 for the mid high cabs and you would sound pretty good in a small room. For somewhat larger rooms,you would need to double up at least on the subs,and probably on the mid/high cabs(Or get higher end cabs that will handle more power)

[OneEng]

I play in a weekend warrior band. My PA is around 7-10K. I have bought most of my gear used.

 

I have a better PA than most clubs I go to (or it is just better setup in some cases).

 

Most bands I know have a cheep PA, but they don't sound anything like we do. Most people in the audience just assume that our band rocks. While this is certianly true I think that the thunderous punch of low from the folded horn subs and Crown K2 amp combined with the super smooth and clear mids and highs from the Klipsch speakers is what they think "rocks". I doubt they would have such a high opinion of us on another PA.

 

It is expensive to mic drums and bass. The power required is very high.

 

Mark,

I play on a VHT amplifier and have a Les Paul and 2 Strats with custom pickups. I have around 5K wrapped up in just my guitar rig I think that far and away our bands best asset is that the drums and bass sound fantastic through the PA though. It is good that I spent 2x the amount on the PA as I did my guitar.

 

The drum mic's alone will run you $300-500.00. The subwoofers will likely be 700 each (The SRX JBL's are better, but are quite expensive ... and big as a house), add in another $700.00 for the sub amp and crossover, then $200.00 for cables. I think these are honest numbers.

[abzurd]

The thing is nobody here wants to lead you down the wrong road.

 

You probably already know the REAL answer...... Behringer crossover ($80), Behringer mains ($400) , Behringer subs ($400) and a Behringer power amp ($300 - $600 depending on if you get 1 or two).

There you're all done at under $1500.

 

Properly set up it will pass for small clubs. Keep the cabinets dry and don't overpower. No customer support or service so repairs will be difficult. BUT - the stuff is so cheap if you get a year out of it and something in the rig breaks just pitch and buy another.

 

Also, if you get into a bigger club consider hiring out. You don't want to push a small PA in a big venue, sound bad and never get asked back.

[flanc]

Absurd is right on. The Behringer cabinets are the "tallest midget" (my apologies to any little people) when it comes to bargain gear. The Yamaha clubs are a commonly agreed upon standard in that $300/per range (there are plenty others of equal value though) and the Yorkvilles (elites) occupy a space between MI gear and pro/touring gear. Most of us hear bands/sell gear/ and are generally exposed to a variety of gear and until a better tool comes along, we tend to recommend what we feel to be a value.

 

BTW, I have close to 20K tied up in PA for my band that does gig's where the attendence is from 100 to 500..most around the 200-300 mark. I didn't go out and right a check for $20K, but accumulated all this stuff over years. The FOH speakers/amps/crossover portion (the part you are looking for) cost me about $5,500. I'm a gearhead and wish I had more, but what I have fits my needs pretty well.

[madjack]

My current small club rig:

Yorkville pulse 2x10 subs, powered, 600 watts ea-$750 ea new.

EV 200 SX tops, unpowered, $400 ea new.

Soundtech amp, 400watts p/side @ 8 ohms, $650 new.

Driverack PA w/calibrated mike, $600 new.

Total new cost-$3150

I use this system in 50-100 seat venues regularly and get quite a lot of compliments from audience, owners, and other musicians on the quality of the sound. I've never yet topped out the volume.

(As those in the know will see, most of the gear listed is now out of production. I don't know what's currently available that is comparable.)

[dirtyragamuffin]

I think $1500 isn't realistic but maybe at the bottom $3K is, and $4K for sure would get you what you need, and for $5K you could have a very nice sounding set of cabs and appropriate power and a competent xover. For any shows requiring more than that, you'll want to hire out anyway.

 

$.02

[bassknave]

Gotta agree with Mark and One Eng--if you want the sound, you gotta spend the money.

 

BUT--there are some shortcuts--I bought my top boxes (Klipsch) used at $200/ea. My subs came originally from JBL's tent sale, reboxed per my own design at about $300/ea-- I've been horsetrading Yorkville amps for years--'til I wound up with 2 AP3400s and a pair of AP3000s. average cost--$150.00-400. My Spirit Live 8 was a Bstock unit--with warranty--for $2K. All in all, with mic complement, monitor system, truck, lights, et al, I'm in about $18k for a 10KW 4/4 system, worth about $25-30K. My stage rig (Roscoe 7-string and Trace Elliot) retails for about $8K--I'm into it about $3K.

[dirtyragamuffin]

Damn, you guys have had some good deals! Phil and Mark make great points. I'm in the process of buying about $8,500 worth of studio gear...except I'm actually in it about $5500. If you operate on 25% savvy, 25% justification, 25% sheer luck, and 25% being a good haggler, you can get some very useable gear at a very reasonable price.

 

When I said above that $3K bottom could get what you need, I was assuming there would be some of this involved. Spending more does make a difference.

[tony k]

As some of you on the forum know, I've gotten some incredible deals on my rig. JBL tent sale subs ( thanks for the tip Phil!). Meyer 650 double 18's (thanks Andy!) Some great quality cables for the best price out there and an ass kicking amp (thanks Mark!). And have found some great deals on other amps, a board and outboard gear. That being said, even with the deals, I have over $7000 invested. We consistantly get compliments on the smoothness of the sound. We consistenly get asked back to the same venues. And we have bartenders and waitresses asking to work when we play because we draw a decent crowd that that likes to have fun and let's the owners and employees know that they'd like to see us at their establishment on a regular basis. That's the difference between doing it and doing it right.

[jprintz31]

Wow....

 

I didn't think I would stir up so much trouble. Actually, we have $5k for two mains, two subs, and an amp. We still have not found what we want (there are so many options). I just wanted to see if we were missing anything.

 

Currently we have a Behringer cabs, subs, and definitely not enough power. It sounds ok, but we are ready to upgrade.

 

If I don't have to spend the full wad, I don't want to.

[abzurd]

sigh................

 

Yorkville EF500P ($2000 for 2)

 

Yorkville LS800P ($1600 for 2)

 

 

For $3600 you have:

 

- biamped mains with processing built in

- powered subs

- no crossover needed

- perfectly matched amps for the speakers

-- no speaker cables needed (no line loss from speaker cables either)

- 2 year NO FAULT warranty.

- 4600W FOH - enough for a decent sized bar and even a small outdoor venue.

- this damn nice sh!t for the weekend warrrior band, will serve you well. IMO, this is the BUY ONCE CRY ONCE way to do it

- $1400 to spend on other stuff

[flanc]

Ditto what Abzurd said......

[fossil]

I've been reading this thread with some amusement from both sides, the original poster and the people trying "to help". Let me see if I have this straight:

 

You want a full system for small bars (approx 100 in audience?)? Currently you have some Behringer mains, subs (what model # mains, subs?) and small poweramp but are not using a crossover (are you using a 31 band EQ for the mains?)? So you are sending a full range signal to both your mains & subs? You place the Bass cab near the drummer and then mic it (the bass cab? with what type of mic?) so they can feel the thump (through their IEM's? (again.. what type of IEM's?). You never did mention what your guitarists/bassist are using (amp sizes and wattage. Get on your cell phone and find out if you dont know off hand). Do you play an acoustic set or electronic?

 

Lots of questions but to me it seems you may not be getting the most out of your current system. Your money and effort might be best spent getting your current system up to snuff (while adding components that you can still use if/when you upgrade ... X-over, bigger poweramp, DI Box etc.). Kinda of hard to say when we really dont have much information about your setup and how you are utilizing it. Which might explain why you got Audiopiles "you need a Lamborghini if you drive less than 100 miles a week and earn under 40K a year" answer. Then again I think he's just grumpy, not that Im not...

[fossil]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile Really? $15K replacement value wrapped up in a decent club rig suitable for playing modern R&R is extravagant? What's reasonable then?...

 

 

My point being jprintz31 doesnt seem to be looking for a decent club system (and I dont mean he is looking for a cheap system). What I get from his posts is he is looking for a decent small bar, approximately 100 people, system. I dont know maybe small bars in your area pay decently enough that 22k+ (including backline) is a reasonable amount of money to spend to play to 100 people a show.

[strangegrey]

 

Originally posted by fossil My point being jprintz31 doesnt seem to be looking for a decent club system (and I dont mean he is looking for a cheap system). What I get from his posts is he is looking for a decent small bar , approximately 100 people, system. I dont know maybe small bars in your area pay decently enough that 22k+ (including backline) is a reasonable amount of money to spend to play to 100 people a show.

 

 

I just don't get the concept of dragging in subs, mids, huge horns and thousands of watts of power, to play to a 20X60 room, filled with 75-150 people....thats rediculous. Can you say Overkill???In these small bars, a pair of 2-way 15" loudspeakers 'on sticks' , used properly, sounds thunderous.....As a matter of fact, to the person commenting about how rediculous alice in chains sounds on a PA on a stick setup.....it's a HELL of alot more doable than in the 80s, when everything sounded polished to hell and back.....at least now, the raw sound can be passable....

 

I've been gigging that way (15" 2-ways on sticks) for quite some time now, and I'm only now at the stage where adding two small subs might get a little more thump out of things...and I'm not playing rooms bigger than 150 people.....and the rooms around here that fit more than 150 folks, have their own perm. systems with paid soundguys.

 

Plus, when a cover band isn't making more than a few bucks...how the hell do you expect them to buy 20 grand of PA gear? Hell, at that income, it's a real stretch for the band to scrape up 3K!!!

 

Here's one more point......Most cover bands have 4-5 people..it's hard enough to keep those people together, without fighting over setlists....how the hell do you think they're going to be able to cooperatively scrape together enough money for a system....what happens when someone leaves the group? a buyout?! In all honesty, it's usually one or two guys in a band who own the PA....and when that sole guy is getting 1/5 of a band's meager wages for the evening.....buying a 20K PA system seems like the equivalant of one guy trying to dig up 12 tons of rubble.....

 

Jumping back to the original point, I remember talking to a soundguy....that has 2 huge ass subs, on that are two 2X15 cabs per side, and on top of that mess, huge horns....Each speaker tower is about 7 feet tall. I was talking to him about what he does for a particularly small club around here, where the bar is right against where the band plays. When we were there, we stuck our PA bins up on 'the sticks'...when he sets up there, he sets up his two 7 feet towers on the opposite side, right next to eachother...since the one tower doesn't fit on the bar side.....so here he goes, with two huge 7 feet towers, side by side.....taking up 1/4 of the width of the actual room....the band is scrunched in between this mess and the bar.....and if he turned up the system, he'd blow all the {censored}ing windows out in the place....

 

So I ask him "Why dont you either come up with a smaller rig for smaller places or bring less of the current PA?"

 

He laughs and said "where's the fun in that?"

 

Sure, I guess fun is breaking your back, to haul in 5X as much equipment as needed to do a spectacular job...

 

 

Oh, one more point. Anyone that gigs regularly knows that the quicker you can setup and break down, the better....for a variety of reasons. Hell, guitarists bring nothing out but pods these days....Why the hell would you bring 8 bins, just to play a small bar with 100 people in it...when 2 will do?

[strangegrey]

Audiopile,

 

Actually...I play with a real amp and take 2 guitars live....

 

I'm sure there are soundman out there that want to make sure that their product is absolutely stellar....and I can understand that..

 

But I think there needs to be a distinction made between the pro-soundman that makes good money for his or her work...and the band member that needs a small, portable system to play in rooms where the band isn't making more than a few hundred bucks....or less than that even.

 

This kind of 'class separation' is a big problem on rec.pro.audio....lots of guys in there that are professional sound engineers...and then there's a few guys that like to record into their PC using a soundblaster....Now that's a true split between pro and am...One guy will ask, "best vocal Mic under 150 dollars" and you'll get 15 responses from guys that say 'you can't do a vocal mic under 150"....and one response that gets it...and goes "try an Oktava 319" The guy was asking for the best mic, in his application.....a guy that records himself in his bedroom, doesn't need a Neuman.....he wants something that sounds ok, but doesn't cost more than pocket change....because he doesn't rely on it for his primary source of income.

 

So....You've got pro live sound engineers, that only deal with pro level equipment...and do large productions...and put food on the table with their earnings...

 

and then, you've got pro musicians (that most likely work a day job), that can't afford to pay a sound engineer to do their pa work...so they need advice on small portable systems that get them in and out of a place quick, and light....with the best results possible....

 

I think the problem I have, is that there are a few out there that can't see the distinction....like the guy I was refering to.....sometimes, the place is too damn small to bring in a humungeous pa.....is it wise to bring in enough PA to handle 5000 people, when there's only 75? I dunno.....We played the specific place that I was talking about....with the PA on sticks approach, and we got asked back....we had a good gig there...I'm sure the other band that played there with the two huge towers did well, as well.....but it took us 30 minutes to tear down...I'm sure it took them 2 hours.

 

so we're just talking about applying the PA-thing on two vastly different levels.

 

 

So sometimes, when someone asks....give me a PA suggestion for 2000 or less......there's a good chance that all the band needs and can afford is a Mackie 808S and two yamaha s115iv's....or a behringer 2442fx-pro, a budget power amp, and two bins.......and all they really are asking is "which bins?" and "which amps?"

 

-F

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by strangegrey I just don't get the concept of dragging in subs, mids, huge horns and thousands of watts of power, to play to a 20X60 room, filled with 75-150 people....thats rediculous. Can you say Overkill???In these small bars, a pair of 2-way 15" loudspeakers 'on sticks' , used properly, sounds thunderous.....As a matter of fact, to the person commenting about how rediculous alice in chains sounds on a PA on a stick setup.....it's a HELL of alot more doable than in the 80s, when everything sounded polished to hell and back.....at least now, the raw sound can be passable.... I've been gigging that way (15" 2-ways on sticks) for quite some time now, and I'm only now at the stage where adding two small subs might get a little more thump out of things...and I'm not playing rooms bigger than 150 people.....and the rooms around here that fit more than 150 folks, have their own perm. systems with paid soundguys. Plus, when a cover band isn't making more than a few bucks...how the hell do you expect them to buy 20 grand of PA gear? Hell, at that income, it's a real stretch for the band to scrape up 3K!!! Here's one more point......Most cover bands have 4-5 people..it's hard enough to keep those people together, without fighting over setlists....how the hell do you think they're going to be able to cooperatively scrape together enough money for a system....what happens when someone leaves the group? a buyout?! In all honesty, it's usually one or two guys in a band who own the PA....and when that sole guy is getting 1/5 of a band's meager wages for the evening.....buying a 20K PA system seems like the equivalant of one guy trying to dig up 12 tons of rubble..... Jumping back to the original point, I remember talking to a soundguy....that has 2 huge ass subs, on that are two 2X15 cabs per side, and on top of that mess, huge horns....Each speaker tower is about 7 feet tall. I was talking to him about what he does for a particularly small club around here, where the bar is right against where the band plays. When we were there, we stuck our PA bins up on 'the sticks'...when he sets up there, he sets up his two 7 feet towers on the opposite side, right next to eachother...since the one tower doesn't fit on the bar side.....so here he goes, with two huge 7 feet towers, side by side.....taking up 1/4 of the width of the actual room....the band is scrunched in between this mess and the bar.....and if he turned up the system, he'd blow all the {censored}ing windows out in the place.... So I ask him "Why dont you either come up with a smaller rig for smaller places or bring less of the current PA?" He laughs and said "where's the fun in that?" Sure, I guess fun is breaking your back, to haul in 5X as much equipment as needed to do a spectacular job... Oh, one more point. Anyone that gigs regularly knows that the quicker you can setup and break down, the better....for a variety of reasons. Hell, guitarists bring nothing out but pods these days....Why the hell would you bring 8 bins, just to play a small bar with 100 people in it...when 2 will do?

Well,I'm a guitarist first and the "soundperson" second. I kind of took that part over because I was sick of band members who were satisfied playing through a bunch of old junk just so they would have more drinking money at the end of the night. I also own the van for hauling the main stuff and pay the insurance,etc. I try to take about 10% off the top of every gig,which comes to about $50-80 on most occasions. Certainly not enough to cover everything,but it offsets a lot of the costs. The key is,you really have to enjoy doing it. I use three PLX3002's(two in the smallest places)and up to four large single 18" FH scoops,along with various tops,depending on if we are indoors or outdoors. For most club gigs,I use two of the subs per side and a pair of dual 12" two-way cabs/side. For the smallest places,it is just one of each per side. All of my rack stuff(except for the drummer's. He has a small submix rack) fits in a 12-space rack and a mini Gig-rig. If it seemed too much like a job,I would just quit and sell insurance or something with those extra hours. Anyway,I've never heard a decent sounding modern/high-energy rock band sound good without having a fair amount of bottom octave frequencies in the mix. I've heard too many of that type of band try doing things with the 15" on a stick and it never sounds good at all. Sure,you can sound loud in a small club with a 50 watt half-stack and 500 watt bass along with a 500 watt powered mixer through a pair of 15" cabs,but authentic? They always seem really hard sounding and loud in all the wrong places. I believe I already mentioned that you can do some things for what you originally asked if you know what to look for. So,it is always a compromise, Depends on which is more important to you. I work a second job part-time so that I have extra cash because I don't want to play through junk. But that's just my decision. BTW,I use a Mesa Nomad 45 head and a small 4x12" cab and also bring about 4-5 guitars to most shows,so I am still a guitarist at heart. But if the total band sounds bad,the best guitar playing in the world won't save you in most listener's eyes/ears. Also,as for the club systems,I try to avoid them at all costs. Even when we play a club that has one,I always make sure when I book the gig that we will be using our own mains.