Vocals Level Problem

[rastaman]

I'm a guitarist/singer in a band and I want to mention up front that I know next to nothing about mixing sound. Everytime we play people ALWAYS say, Turn up the vocals! We have an old Peavy mixer w/ a bunch of channels [ at least 16 ], 2 1000watt Crowns and 1 Alesis [ don't know the wattage ], crossover, equilizer, big Yamaha subs, big Peavy speakers, Alesis effects units, 3 moniters, and all the necessary other stuff. The bassist runs sound, he mics just about every drum if not all, mic's my amp, lines out his amp, + the vocals. We can't understand why we can't raise the vocals above the instruments [ unless we start too high w/ the drums and bass ]. We heard that new boards have preamps built in and that makes a HUGE difference. Any opinions? I don't want to drop alot of money on a board if there's a cheap and/or better solution. Any ideas?

[groove.77]

Well, turn down the inst. channels and raise the vocal channels.

 

Or, it may be that you're not crossing it over at the right freq., so too much LF is going to the top small cabinets, causing the vocals to be unintelligible.

 

Or, it may be that you're simply putting too much through the system for it to handle at your volume.

[rastaman]

I don't think the inst channels are too high, when we've tried that people say turn up the guitars. Although no one has ever said to turn up the drums. I think we might be putting to much drums into the mix and we have a limited space to go up from there until it starts squealing. What do you know about the preamps in modern mixers? Is that something to consider?

[rastaman]

The bassist sets all the sound up, adjusts it and we go. He tweaks is if necassary. I know, having a sound man would be better but you have to do what you've gotta do.

 

Your suggestion about compression is too complicated for us. I appreciate your response though.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by rastaman I don't think the inst channels are too high, when we've tried that people say turn up the guitars. Although no one has ever said to turn up the drums. I think we might be putting to much drums into the mix and we have a limited space to go up from there until it starts squealing. What do you know about the preamps in modern mixers? Is that something to consider?

Maybe your drums are too hot in the mix. Can't know without hearing you. You have to leave room for the vocals when you are setting volumes before you start.You must not be dialing in at sound check. How do you do your pre-gig sound check? Is anyone out front with good ears to get a good grasp? If it is good at sound check,it should be good when you actually play. Maybe your main EQ is set funny so that you get feedback way too soon. Is the vocal tone good? Does anyone have a wireless in the band? And last,Mark is dead on about backing off and creating room for the vocals when the singing starts. Same with any leads,etc. You can't just stand there bashing away at your max volume.

[agedhorse]

 

Originally posted by rastaman We heard that new boards have preamps built in and that makes a HUGE difference. Any opinions? I don't want to drop alot of money on a board if there's a cheap and/or better solution. Any ideas?

 

All boards have preamps...

 

Different preamps don't make a huge difference... that's marketing hype.

 

Inform your bass player that the faders on a console are designed to move down as well as up. Turn some of the other stuff down... maybe drums?

 

Try some band dynamics, that's how the (real) pros deliver a polished delivery.

[J the D]

I'm also a bass player that runs sound from the stage. I would imagine your drums and instruments are taking up too much bandwidth. We use the PA to just fill out and enhance the sound of our drums, lead guitar and bass at lower levels.

 

Regarding dynamics, when the vocals start we ALL back off. That is the only way to keep things clear. When we start jamming everyone comes back up but we immediately back off when the vocals start again. When we set up our levels in the sound check we establish the vocals first and then add in everything else. Everything is secondary to the vocals. If the vocals are not cutting through we cut something else, not boost the vocals.

 

Two things that differentiate pros from amateurs:

 

1) Starting and stopping together.

 

2) The use of dynamics.

[MDLMUSIC]

Here's a trick I often use to "force" dynamics on my band mates...

If you have somebody who really likes to crank out the volume, whether its vocal or instumental, just turn them up in the monitor mix, but not the mains. This will cause them to back down to a reasonable level on stage and it will sound better in the FOH. I have a drummer who is notorious for insisting that his background vocals are never loud enough, even though he's already twice as loud as the lead singer (me). I just crank up his mic to his monitor and he's happy.

Also, if (like me), you are both mixing sound and playing an instrument, invest in a wireless system (unless you're a drummer). That way you can get out in the audience area/dance floor during a sound check to see what the levels are like. You can also get out once the show has started and hear what has happened to the sound in a room full of people. If you're also singing (like me), you might even want to get a wireless headset mic, although most of them do not sound near as good as a regular wired mic on a stand. However, the coolness factor of playing and singing while you're out on the dance floor kind of offsets this deficit.

 

Michael D.

[Tommy Tune]

Usually if you are going through subs, there is a master volume for the subs. Once you get the mix, back it off until you can hear the vocals. Maybe you just have a mismatched setup. You're mains are weak and your subs are too powerful. Dynamics are key...........with or without a soundman but try to back off on the overall volume of what's coming out of the subs. The compressor idea is a good one too. It will stay complicated if you don't at least try to figure it out. Nothing ventured..........nothing gained.

[J.]

Originally posted by Audiopile

What kills me are the riders specifying wireless drum mics.

 

Well, with the way most drummers run around on stage with their drums while playing, it only makes sense.

[Old Steve]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile What kills me are the riders specifying wireless drum mics.

 

 

I guess it would be important if you were micing the drumline in a marching band...although I'm not sure many of us here get that kind of work very often, and those guys don't usually need to be miced.

 

As for the original poster, obviously everyone here is guessing a little bit because we can't actually hear your band. From a K.I.S.S. (keep it simple stupid) approach, I'd say the following:

 

 

 

 

Finally, know the limitations of your system (you might not have enough to get as loud as you'd like) and learn to play with dynamics...especially if you don't have a skilled fader jockey.

[5slinger]

This is 20/20 hindsight (because I actually read all of the other posts) but here is my 2 cents;

One see if

A) you can really get all you want out of your current setup.

 

B) Do a check use the 1 1/2 x's rule on power amps rule for your speakers ie if your drivers are speced at 300 watts make sure your driving them with at least 500 watts, especially your subs, lows, and low mids. One thing I have discovered is when a signal is maxed out (clipping even slightly) it can begin to cause immediate feedback.

 

C) Check the crossover point for your system; are you running 2 way mono or stereo, or 3 way mono or stereo?Kill the lows and subs in stereo (it just eats up power and is mostly inaudible) and run your mids and highs only in stereo, and adjust to YOUR voice. Are you a Baritone (Scott Stapp) or a Tenor (Geddy Lee) or somewhere in the middle?

 

D) EQ EQ EQ Try adjusting the 40 to 800 (usual bass freqs) down a bit boost maybe 800 to 2K (usual natural human voice) and cut some of the 2.4 to 4K (guitar freqs although they do go down as low as 500 to 800) leave the 5K to realistically 10K slightly above the 2.4 to 4K and boost a little 16K and 20 K for sharpness.

Remember nothing should go above the 0 (actually the flat or center line on an EQ).

 

E) And check the placement of your cabs to the vox mic. Also check the monitor system out w/o the mains at "show" volumeduring soundcheck. Sometimes (alot of times) the feedback knome is in your moni system and once the mains go up a small hum or ring that is hidden during your playing circles back (which is the main cause of feedback). Also check the throw degree's of your horns on the mids (if you use mid horns) and highs. Sometimes the throw overlaps into the field of the vox mics causing feedback.

 

F) Hire a sound man. There are dozens of people out there who know alot about sound and production but don't play and some that do too who are just looking for this type of gig to start out with. Granten they aren't Andy (Agedhorse) or Dan (Audioeast)or Mark YET but how do you think these guys learned? Some beer, some {censored} (leftovers of course), and hangin with the band....... later down the road when you get some bigger gig's then pay the dude.

 

CJ:D :D

[digwhisper]

The only thing I can add (and it is pretty silly really) is this. Make sure that everyone plays at a showtime level when you soundcheck. I have a drummer I work with that comes to mind immediately. He has good dynamics and is a strong team player but for some reason he is shy at soundcheck. Even if I remind him a dozen times he always plays nice and gentle (tap, tap, tap) during soundcheck. Then when the lights come up and the crowd crowds to the dance floor he gets pumped up and, you guessed it (slam, slam, slam). The only real remedy I've come up with is either to tell him to play twice as hard as he thinks is appropriate for soundcheck or I just remember that he's going to get a whole lot louder. I usually just subgroup his drum mics so that I can pull him back or push him in nice and fast. And yes, I run sound from stage and play lead guitar. Thanks to wireless!