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the right powered pa for my band


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Ok - I am getting a mixer right now - for free - so that is covered but I have a band and here is what we play out of: marshall jcm2000dsl 50 watt tube head with 4x12 cab - ampeg svt4 pro head (i think it pushes between 400-600 with the settings its on) and ampeg svt8x10e cabinet (for bass of course) drummer plays hard and loud - we practice in a room thats probably 8x14 or so - give take a foot - and we need at least one speaker cabinet to PRACTICE with - we arent re4ally worried about playing out now but we want to be able to hear the singer over the otehr stuff

 

we have looked into carvin's powered speaker cabs and thats waht I think we are going to get - so here are the options that we see right now:

 

the 1584A powered speaker (which is smaller)

http://carvin.com/cgi-bin/Isearch.exe?CFG=2&P2=1584A&P1=SPK

 

OR

 

the 1588A Powered Speaker (which is the larger one)

http://carvin.com/cgi-bin/Isearch.exe?CFG=2&P2=1588A&P1=SPK

 

other misc questions: 1. will it be ok with one cabinet only (i wouldnt see the problem in this) 2. if you have any reason why a powered speaker setup wouldnt work too well - or you know a cheaper, better solution - tell me

 

Ben

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Cheaper isn't always better. Look ahead into the future. Do you want to start playing out eventially? I'm assuming yes is the answer. So with that in mind, why not spend a little more on something that could be used as monitors when you start playing out. If you think and but like this, it will save you time, money and a headache later!

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Originally posted by fetuspetus

well the thing is where we play - they always have a house pa - we are an all original band


we dont need a pa system for shows - unless we throw our own shows


Ben

What if you get hired to do a street dance or town celebration. Mainly what I meant by my first comment was 1)Carvin stuff isn't that great,and 2)You could probably have 5000 watts and it wouldn't be enough the way you explained. You mentioned that the drummer is a noisy animal,meaning you probably have your tube half-stack turned up fairly high(very loud)and your bass player probably has his/her rig up a ways too(again very loud) And then you are throwing all this noise into a super small room and you expect to be able to get the vocal volume above it w/o feeding back. I don't see it happening.

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Get your drummer to get some practice heads or studio rings for his kit. I wouldn't be caught dead in an 8x14 room with a drum kit.

 

Get a small powered mixer. Peavey makes some really reliable ones with great features and decent sound. They also have a new speaker line, the Pro-Lites. I've been listening to them in a couple of shops I frequent, and for the dirt cheap prices, they're f'in amazing. A pair of the PR-15's will set you back $320, for the pair. Their powered mixers start at $300, so for $620 or a little more you're set for practice and won't necessarily make asses of yourselves if you need your own system occasionally.

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If you plan on just using the cab for vocals I would suggest something with a 12" woofer rather than a 15". Yorkville has the NX520P, sells for around $650. I would also suggest a 1x31 band EQ to 'try' and help reduce feedback but with the situation you described above Im guessing the snare drum will cause some nice feedback through the vocal mic. Also look into using proper gain structure, Mic & speaker placement & get the singer as far away from the drum kit as possible (though with such a small room there may be no good spot).

 

The easiest, most cost effective & benificial path would be to play at a respectable volume. Though most 'musicians' dont seem to grasp that concept.

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Originally posted by Craigv

... I wouldn't be caught dead in an 8x14 room with a drum kit...

 

 

I have actually played in smaller rooms with a drumkit and it wasnt a problem.... until the lead guitarist showed up with his half stack and turned it to 8. Before that we had 2 guitars, Bass, Drums and vocals at respectable levels. One bad apple spoils the whole damn bunch. But somehow I always end up in a band with 4 bad apples:rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Audiopile


Ok... if I've distilled this down correctly: Right now you need a practice PA type rig...right?


On that assumption, I'd say you need some spanky wedges capable of doing the vocal thing, exclusively. 12's and 1's ought to do the trick. They'll need to be capable of 125dB+ to be happy with them. Keep everything out of the mix except the vocals. You'll need one wedge per band member and a decent drum fill.


If you ever start playing out and want to mic the drums up, you'll need between 5KW and 10KW FOH and another 2.5KW minimum in monitor world to be compatable with your instrument amps.


I suspect you're going to try and get by with 1/10th that. The lead singer will be screaming his lungs out if that's the case.

 

 

Mark, he did claim that his venues all provide a system.

 

But we all know how this will turn out.

 

Well, almost all of us.

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We finally have a local venue that bit the bullet and bought a nice system. EAW, A&H, Crown and comparable outboard equip. Nice sounding system. Loud but smooth, doesn't hurt your head if that makes any sense. Nice mix of national and local acts filtering through the place. Other than that venue it's run what ya brung.

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I think that response about disappointment was directed more at the choice of Carvin gear. Carvin PA gear just isn't regarded as the level of quality it tries to promote itself as. And Carvin stuff never goes on sale, so there's always a better deal out there somewhere.

 

There's nothing wrong with getting powered spekers for your use, but buy wedge-shaped boxes that can serve as floor wedges. That way when you run through a House PA you can take your own monitors and will at least know the quality of something in the system.

 

Peace,

D

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Originally posted by Audiopile


Ok... if I've distilled this down correctly: Right now you need a practice PA type rig...right?


If you ever start playing out and want to mic the drums up, you'll need between 5KW and 10KW FOH and another 2.5KW minimum in monitor world to be compatable with your instrument amps.


 

 

10,000 watts!!!! My main amp is 750 per channel and we never get to turn it up. If you're a professional touring band playing 5,000 seat halls, maybe. For the average bar band, you don't need anything like that kind of power.

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Originally posted by GCDEF

10,000 watts!!!! My main amp is 750 per channel and we never get to turn it up. If you're a professional touring band playing 5,000 seat halls, maybe. For the average bar band, you don't need anything like that kind of power.

 

 

I think Mark's comments of wattage needed were based more on keeping pace with the drums and backline rather then venue size. Also if they start micing drums then everything else needs to go up even more. How many times have you gone and seen a band in a small venue where they had so much backline power that they couldnt get the vocals up loud enough?

 

Look at it this way:

 

Band A - has reasonable stage volume. They push 2x750 to their mains and 2x750 to their subs, 3KW's total.

 

Band B - stage volume is 6db louder than Band A's, theoretically they will need 4x the power of Band A to get the vocals to a comparable level in the FOH.

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Originally posted by fossil



I think Mark's comments of wattage needed were based more on keeping pace with the drums and backline rather then venue size. Also if they start micing drums then everything else needs to go up even more. How many times have you gone and seen a band in a small venue where they had so much backline power that they couldnt get the vocals up loud enough?


Look at it this way:


Band A - has reasonable stage volume. They push 2x750 to their mains and 2x750 to their subs, 3KW's total.


Band B - stage volume is 6db louder than Band A's, theoretically they will need 4x the power of Band A to get the vocals to a comparable level in the FOH.

 

 

Maybe things are different in Washington. Other than concert halls, I don't know of any regular clubs that would tolerate anywhere near the type of volume 10,000 watts would generate.

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Originally posted by GCDEF



Maybe things are different in Washington. Other than concert halls, I don't know of any regular clubs that would tolerate anywhere near the type of volume 10,000 watts would generate.

 

 

I think it's pretty common to have the circumstances Mark and fossil describe. In fact I think it's so common that most of us are accustomed to live sound having inadequate vocals. I know I was until a few weeks ago....I saw a local "wedding & party" band for free in the local park. They had two pair of sr4719's and a pair of sr4732's driven by a half-dozen Macro Tech's. I got close enough to witness that their stage volume was quite low, and the overall sound was awesome. In fact it's about the best outdoor sound I've heard aside from major acts.

 

After this show, everything I've heard since has, frankly, come up weak.

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We use 7,000 watts for FOH and 1000 watts for our modest Mon. setup whether we're playing to 30 people or 300. It's all about how you want to sound and the inpression you want to leave at that establishment. Not to say that we push the system to the limit in front of 30 people but it's nice to know that the headroom is there.

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Originally posted by GCDEF

Maybe things are different in Washington. Other than concert halls, I don't know of any regular clubs that would tolerate anywhere near the type of volume 10,000 watts would generate.

 

 

Like I said, many times I see bands with the full tilt backline wondering why they cant get the vocals to an acceptable level. there are two ways to get the vocals to an acceptable level either a) add more speakers and wattage or b) turn the f*** down. 95% of the bands who use the full tilt backline can not grasp the concept of turning the f*** down. They also cant seem to grasp the concept of why it would benefit them, their audience and the club owner if they did turn the f*** down.

 

Many places around here will let bands play at god awful volumes and many of them arent using 10KW for FOH. The venues dont know anything different. their happy when they see the guitarists only rolling in a half stack rather than the full stack for a 200-300 capacity venue. A lot of soundmen around here also dont grasp the concept of acceptable volume. They seem to think that if patrons are able to hold a conversation without the need to scream (even at the back of the venue) then it aint loud enough. Not every place is like that around here, but way to many for my liking.

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Originally posted by Craigv

....After this show, everything I've heard since has, frankly, come up weak.

 

 

Craig, you're from the same area as me. Im sure you've witnessed the volume some of the bands in this area produce onstage and FOH. Seems the soundmen & musicians don't realize the volume knobs go both ways. I hear lots of talk about needing the volume for "tone" but that can't seem to grasp the concept that if they started out with smaller on stage amps they could get their tone and not need to wear earplugs! novel concept.

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Originally posted by GCDEF



Maybe things are different in Washington. Other than concert halls, I don't know of any regular clubs that would tolerate anywhere near the type of volume 10,000 watts would generate.

Most of the popular bands in my area playing the 100-250 clubs use at least 4-5K on mains. I usually use between 5-9k depending on the size of the club and the number of speakers we use. We seldom get volume complaints,whereas a lot of the lesser bands with 100watt Marshalls/Rectos and only using maybe 1000 watts watts for vocals only,do. I know that we will send a db meter farther than a lot of these bands,but we don't sound as loud because the tone is far more balanced. Not just a bunch of hard 100-4000hz noise being hammered into your ears.

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I had wondered about sound quality myself. To me a 5k to 10k system just idleing through the night will sound a hell of a lot better than a couple of 500 watt speakers on sticks being run to the edge of destruction. To me the sound of those small rigs being run on the edge just sound so harsh. But maybe that's just me. Could be that's what they're after.

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These are the original poster's requirements

 

"we practice in a room thats probably 8x14 or so - give take a foot - and we need at least one speaker cabinet to PRACTICE with - we arent re4ally worried about playing out now but we want to be able to hear the singer over the otehr stuff"

 

10,000 watts is not required for him.

 

I don't any any specific answer to your probably not very serious questions other than my own experience. For better or worse, a lot of the places I end up playing the managers want the patrons to be able to hold a conversation if they want. They want the staff to be able to hear the oders the customers are giving. Stages also tend to be very small. Any place I've played large enough to warrant the kind of power you descrive has provided a PA. The others simply don't want that kind of sound level. The original poster clearly isn't near the point of playing to huge crowds. To give the impression that anything less than 10,000 watts is inadequate I believe is misleading. Many bands can and do get by with much less.

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Just a reminder that the amp power required depends on the size of the venue, style of music, SPL required (demanded), efficiency of the system, indoors/outdoors etc.

 

As a concert system provider, we generally have little control over the engineer so we tend to be sure that we are packing enough racks and stacks for what might happen.

 

I toured with a 15kW compact rig for years. The music style, audience type etc made that the ideal power level for my application. I got into trouble a few times when the music crossed over into styles with "attitude", not that it wasn't an appropriate amount, but that the band engineer was (in my opinion) WAY too loud. Audience members would leave which confirmed my opinion.

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