Guitar amps vs. PA

[MDLMUSIC]

I heard a band doing an outdoor show at a swap meet and noticed that with three guitar players, a bass player, and a drummer (all of whom sang), only the bass player had an amp on the stage. The three guitar players were all going into Pods that fed into the PA system. This didn't look to be too fancy, couldn't see the mixer or amp, but the speakers were 12" w/horn affairs on speaker stands...no subs that I could see. The sound was pretty decent...not loud but very clean, which is I'm sure what the venue demanded.

 

What are your thoughts on this? Can Pods replace combo amps in certain situations? How about other direct box type gear, such as SansAmp?

 

I'm anxious to hear what the sound experts think.

[ashivraj]

this really boils down to:

can simulators/line6 stuff sound as good as a cranked tube amp?

which is the topic of many flame wars.

 

still, being a soundguy first and a guitarist/bassist second... i dunno. if the guitarist doesnt like his tone, he isnt gonna be happy, and his playing will reflect this.

yet, if he likes his tone, 10 to 1 it's from a cranked amp that makes you have to mix minus the amp, PLUS crank the monitors to hear over the gtr amp.

 

so where does the compromise lie? some will swear by their PODs and digital rigs, whereas some wont play if they dont use their analog pedalboards running into a marshall 4x12. a good guitarist will shred and do arpeggios and all that technique, but a good MUSICIAN will have some technique, as well as the more important ability to blend in with a band, and do that well.

 

i believe the best guys are the ones who can get tone and technique (aim the amp at your face, not your nuts) with a POD or a small combo amp(a good one though - not a crate 5W type), and there's plenty of such combos around. too bad there arent as many guitarists who could do justice to that equipment. so the fault really doesnt lie with the gear, but with the player and his/her ability to step out of the "more is better, louder is cooler" box. though there's an equal number of talented guys who cant afford good gear, but let's not go into that. two sides to each coin.

 

so, a good tone can be reached without much compromise - no need to use a behringer DI with a cab sim. not that i've ever used one of those, so im not dissing, but just as an example.

 

likewise, with bass amps. some dudes NEED to feel the air move, feel their nuts squeal, feel the kick in the chest with that low open A. here again, placed right, a small combo (1x15, 2x10, etc.) will be plenty. if it isnt, the band's dynamics arent right, going back to the players themselves.

 

my point? being as objective as i can be (again, sound over guitar/bass for me), i think it is possible to sound good at lower levels too. the right gear helps, but even a mesa combo aimed at your toes won't do you much good at keeping levels down.

 

 

 

AS

[Somerled]

I've probably got a somewhat compromised view on this, being a singer, guitarist, and the guy who gets to run the board from the stage...While I love the sound of a cranked amp as much as the next guitarist, I also like being able to hear when I sing... My weapon of choice is an amp with decent direct outs. I use a Tech 21 Trademark 120, which has sansamp xlr direct outs, and I keep the volume on my amp just loud enough to hear over the drums and bass, and get the rest from the pa. Bass I try to run the same way. Enough volume so everyone on stage can hear it, and nothing more. I've tried playing with a pod type device direct to the board, but I hated trying to pick my guitar out of the monitor mix. (had a second guitarist in the band at the time) I'd rather have my own amp, so I can tell exactly how my stuff sounds...

[Black Frog]

We only run things through the P.A., and the only stage volume is the drums. Bass goes through a Bass POD Pro, and guitars go through a POD Pro. Acoustic goes through a LR Baggs preamp.

 

We all wear IEM's and have mixes to our liking. We constantly get comments about how clean our sound is.

 

What a breeze to mix not having to compete FOH with a 100w Marshall stack blaring in the backline, or any monitor wedges........

 

You can get some nice guitar tones from the POD Pro, and I know others will knock me for saying it, but if you take the time to get some nice presets stored- it is pretty decent. And the trade-off of the little bit of guitar tone for the absolute ease and efficiency of setup and teardown is well worth it. Not to mention a much cleaner sounding FOH mix.

[digwhisper]

I hate the great debate over the sweet spot of an amp. I carry a Mesa Dual Rectifier head and 4x12 cab to every show. Solid quality guitar amps (regardless of size) have sweetspots all the way along the volume spectrum. You just have to know what to adjust and when. If you try to set the knobs the same for full volume as you do for bedroom you're already toast. I use the 4x12 for the bass response I can get out of it. But it doesn't have to be cranked at all to get that ever lovin tone.

 

On stage I use it just like any other monitor. I stack the whole thing on top of a road case that's about 12" tall and make sure the thing is far enough behind me that the angled top hits me smack in the back of my bald little skull. We mic it regardless of venue size and it only gets as loud as the drummer is on stage. I've had several sound guys that will return my calls now, because I make their jobs easier.

 

I used Line 6 gear for about a year, and to be honest it is very convienent to load, hook up, and dial a good FOH sound. That being said, I'd rather use a tube stack or combo turned to sensible volume. To me even at lower volumes the tube stuff sounded better and cut through really well. It all breaks down to the operater though. If you know what you're doing you can really make tube amps sound killer at any volume. Oh, and by the way, the vocalists in my band(s) never have to yell at me about the volume. All is well!

[J the D]

I'm a bass player that has downsized to a 1x12 bass cab run by a decent 120 watt head. It provides enough sound by itself for the small gigs and plenty for the stage on larger gigs. I go through the PA in just about every gig where a little bit of my signal is mixed to make it bigger. Sound techs thank me for using it because they are able to control the house. I get the added benefit of many more dollars spent on a PA than I could ever spend on a bass rig.

 

I also do a lot of sub work in several area theaters that are totally no amp venues. I use E-5s and have a personal mix that allows me to get all the bass I need. The tech actually has the bass louder in the mix than I would if I was running the board.

 

It took a while to get used to not having my pant legs moving but it is so nice to always be able to hear the rest of the band and not have my ears ring.

[OneEng]

I have played side by side with another guitar player who was using the Pod XT.

 

I use a VHT Pittbull 50ST and a Digitech 2120.

 

I can cut through the mix ten times easier than he can and my amp volume is sufficently low that when we play you get only a little bleed off stage of my amp speaker. I mic with a Sennhieser 421.

 

While I am impressed with how far Line6 has managed to progress from their earlier models (which were total crap) however, there is still no beating a good tube amp for punch and clarity. Line6 distortion seems flat and lifeless next to my amp. If you heard JUST the Line6, it doesn't sound that bad.... but when there is a REAL tube amp in the near vicinity, it sounds pretty lame and has trouble cutting through the mix without using excessive volume.

 

There is always the COST issues though. Considering you can get a complete LINE 6 system with pedalboard for around $600.00 compared to my VHT setup which is in the neighborhood of 2K with effects and speaker (not to mention another $350.00 for the Sennheiser mic) .... well maybe it doesn't really sound THAT bad if you can pocket that money

[JMS 2]

"Decent" is the key here.

I don't think the modeling is up to par with the real thing as for today.

But I'm certain it will be there in 5-10 years.

 

That being said, I play guitar through a GT-5 (or Sansamp pedal depending on the situation) straight into PA.

As well as keyboard into the PA.

My sound is good enough for ME and to feel comfortable enough to play.

Which is about what is needed IMO.

(Though I had better "tone" with the 100W Marshall stack I previously owned).

 

What you need however is a dedicated personal monitor mix to hear your instrument alone (like you'd do with a stage amp). And that's often where the problem resides.