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Bullfrog speakers!!!!


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I am mostly curious about the PR1510. Anyone have any experience with these? I am about two or three days away from making a purchase on PA speakers. With $400 to spare, it has come down to two choices... the 64lb NADY THS2012 with 2 twelve inch drivers and 750 watt handling or the 115lb Bullfrog PR1510 with a 15 and 10 inch driver handling some over 1000 watts.

 

Anyone who has had experience with either of these products, please post below and help me make a decision between the two. Tell me your experience or knowledge on Bullfrog products. Is the quality of the PR1510 worth the 115 lbs? -Or is the NADY THS 2012 decent enough and the 64 lb load a better idea?

 

Also if I plan on getting subs in the future, which of these might the bottom end compliment more? I've got three days to decide, so post away;) !!!! Thank you.

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Niether name floats to the top when considering speakers (even MI - consumer grade). That said, 12 inchers typically reproduce vocals well. If you are going with no subs and need full range (kick, keyboard, bass guitar) in the mix, then you ought not opt for a 12" cabinet.

 

The Bullfrogs will certainly be a better bet for "full range", but don't expect chest thumping low end. Also, the cabinet is made of particle board (heavy, prone to chipping, will swell and fall apart if it gets wet). I'm sure the Nady's are too, although they have tolex covering so that will repel water a bit.

 

Another thing to consider is that the Bullfrogs are going to be a bit of a problem to stand mount. They have an odd shape that really can't be mounted on a standard stand. You need to get the horns up around 8 feet high so you don't burn the ears of the front row while everyone else doesn't get any high end at all.

 

With regard to the wattage. Don't get all caught up in that game. Specs in the range of speakers you are looking at are optimistic (the nice way of saying they aren't being truthful). There's no real standard for specing so you really don't know what they did to be able to tout those specs.

 

Don't skimp on speakers. They are like tires on a car. An Escort with high performance tires will outhandle a BMW with $25 rubber.

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Yeah I thought about the mounting situation and it does make alot of sense. I was going to see if I could figure out something for them -but it would be very tricky considering I am going to be moving these things around alot. I am leaning on the NADYs for many of reasons, but I was just making sure that these bullfrogs weren't so much of a better quality that the other factors shouldn't matter.

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Double 12's are generally nice for vocals. Not sure about the Nady's though. The THS is the upscale Nady line (if there is such a thing). They have speakon connectors, actual compression drivers for the high end, and I suppose a vinyl covering is better than carpet from a water repellant standpoint. The tolex may be prone to tearing though. In a $200 cabinet corners have to be cut. The woofers are undoubtedly stamped instead of cast frames and I wouldn't be surprised if they only had 2" voice coils in them. Don't expect a lot of thump. They would really be aided by subs.

 

If you don't have to get them for a while you may want to check out the new Cerwin Vega lines. They are "coming soon" on the CV site and you living on the west coast will help availability as CV is based out there somewhere. (CA I think).

 

Also, Yorkville has some nice stuff with a fantastic warranty. This is what my band gigs with.

 

If you have to stay more budget, look at Community and Sonic. They are kind of "upper MI grade". They use Eminence drivers and other "brand name" components. The bullfrogs may too. My guess is the Nady box is loaded with chinese no name woofers and compression drivers.

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Originally posted by abzurd

Double 12's are generally nice for vocals. Not sure about the Nady's though. The THS is the upscale Nady line (if there is such a thing). They have speakon connectors, actual compression drivers for the high end, and I suppose a vinyl covering is better than carpet from a water repellant standpoint. The tolex may be prone to tearing though. In a $200 cabinet corners have to be cut. The woofers are undoubtedly stamped instead of cast frames and I wouldn't be surprised if they only had 2" voice coils in them. Don't expect a lot of thump. They would really be aided by subs.


If you don't have to get them for a while you may want to check out the new Cerwin Vega lines. They are "coming soon" on the CV site and you living on the west coast will help availability as CV is based out there somewhere. (CA I think).


Also, Yorkville has some nice stuff with a fantastic warranty. This is what my band gigs with.


If you have to stay more budget, look at Community and Sonic. They are kind of "upper MI grade". They use Eminence drivers and other "brand name" components. The bullfrogs may too. My guess is the Nady box is loaded with chinese no name woofers and compression drivers.

The Bullfrogs are made out of higher grade OSB and loaded with Eminence Delta series speakers and Eminence titanium high driver. Crossover points of 300 and 4000,I believe. And the driver itself is secured in the cab so that there isn't any pressure on the horn lens to hold all the weight when being tossed around.

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I have that the crossover points are 200 & 2K. Filament Audio Bullfrog Speakers . Nice that they have bracing like that. 115 lbs and odd shape makes them nearly impossible to stand mount though.

 

Also, if you are going to use subs down the road this may be a bit of overkill. For an install this seems like an inexpensive alternative, but not all that practical if lugging around every weekend. That said if you can figure out how to mount them, they may have enough low end to do the "weekend warrior" thing without subs. It seems you could at least put kick drum and bass through them and not degrade the vocals. Modifying them to bi-amp might be good too. Put an amp on the 15 and run another amp to the 10 and horn.

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what would be perfect is if I had 2 straight 4x12 cabs to put em' on top of. I have one angled, but the bullfrogs seem to be too deep to try messing with that. Do they have side handles?

...by the way, this is a very difficult decison.

 

I keep hearing about how nice 12s sound with subs... but then I also hear about how these have high quality components and are worth more. !!!:confused: !!!

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IMO, you are new at this so DON'T OVERCOMPLICATE!!! - Get something that is easily stand mountable (not some oddball size like the Bullfrogs) Unless you are adding subs now, I say get a single 15" woofer cabinet. You can still add subs to this later for the "thump". Many, including myself, typically use a 15" main with subs. 12's are smaller, lighter and do better with vocals, but really are best suited to the higher range instruments (vocals & guitars) and aren't generally meant for running everything in.

 

I don't understand why you are limiting yourself to just these 2 models. Here's some others to make the decision more difficult.

 

Sonic - T153

 

Yamaha Club Series (either the IV or new V version)

 

Community MVP37

 

Yorkville PR315, PL 315

 

Cerwin Vega PSX-153

 

American Audio APX-152 (Cheapest option)

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Well, there is a number of reasons why I am left with these two specific models. This PA is primarily for vocals -our shows aren't all that huge to where we need to mic the whole band -therefore the 212 cab is just what I am looking for. I asked about some 1x12 cabs, but the ones within the price range I am looking at aren't loud enough for me to cut through the mix. I am planning on getting subs in the near future so I can finally use my beta52 for live applications and mic whatever else I want. These speakers were suggested to me by this board as being (THS -halfway decent -will work) and Bullfrogs -decent. Both of these are capable of reaching fairly loud volumes and they are much less expensive than something of the same oomph that you suggested below. I am not in a really serious band -we just have fun and I've always wanted to have a PA system -it could always come in handy. I have a budget that I need to stick with and I need the speakers to be capable of reaching good volumes and being able to handle the extra power as I upgrade amps.

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I certainly understand your points. This is exactly why I recommend a single 15" cabinet. Simple, usually more power handling, capable of more bass than a 12.

 

As far as the Nady goes, not sure where you got the information that the speakers were "loud".

 

The PDF spec sheet says peak power rating is 750W. Peak is usually 2X the program rating so that takes you to 375W. Program is generally 2X RMS so that would take you to 188W. Actually, that's probably about right so they aren't blowing up the ratings too much. BUT - That's not a lot of power handling. Now, power handling isn't everything. Efficiency is important and these claim 101 dB at 1 meter. My guess is this is the efficiency of the horn and not a composite of the cabinet. My point is, these aren't going to be ultra efficient, ultra power handling cabinets. We are talking about Nady, a small step up from Gemini, Pyramid, Gli. Barely above DJ quality. In fact, a lot of their speaker line are piezo loaded DJ type speakers.

 

If you're looking at bullfrogs just get a single 12 or 15 cabinet. They have name brand components and are still inexpensive.

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I'm back. Given your need to stay in a budget (and a pretty tight one it seems) - Those Nady's are only $150 ea. on the Nady site, I think you should go with the American Audio APX-152. Here's why -

 

1) There have been several write ups about them here as a good bang for the buck. Even some of the full timers use these as rental units. They have to be somewhat durable to be rented out regularly.

 

2) You won't have to worry about the quality of the particle board you'd be getting in other budget cabinets. Cheap OSB or MDF boxes can shake themselves apart, swell and fall apart when exposed to moisture, chip and break if dropped.

 

3) No carpet or tolex coming loose or ripping. Cheap speakers mean cheap glue and cheap carpet.

 

4) 225W/450W/900W power handling is respectable (and more than the NADY's you are looking at.

 

5) They are lighter

 

6) They will stand mount easier than the taller Nady's. Do the Nady's even have a pole mount?

 

I just don't want you to make the same mistake I did. Prior to finding this oasis of sound advice and in a band for the first time since I was a teenager, I went out and bought a pair of Carvin dual 15 cabinets. I was of the mindset that I wanted "loud" speakers that could handle bass. What I got was a well built cabinet with crap components and muddy sound (inherent in MI grade double 15's). So I ended up selling off everything and starting over.

 

Given that you are on a tight budget you probably aren't looking to upgrade to subs anytime soon. Adding subs is easily doubling your cost. Another amp, the subs, a crossover. A single 15 will allow some bass if you desire, just don't ask the speaker to do more than it should, and you can always put subs under them later.

 

OK, I'm putting away my soap box. Good luck with whatever you decide.

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So you would still recommend these over the NADYs even though they are single 15s? I hear so much about how the combination of 12s and 18s sound like a dream. Would 18s still sound better with these than they would with the dual 12" NADYs? I will definately look into this. I guess now all I've got to do is hear more opinions about the American Audio speakers.

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Originally posted by abzurd

Prior to finding this oasis of sound advice and in a band for the first time since I was a teenager, I went out and bought a pair of Carvin dual 15 cabinets. I was of the mindset that I wanted "loud" speakers that could handle bass. What I got was a well built cabinet with crap components and muddy sound (inherent in MI grade double 15's). So I ended up selling off everything and starting over.


Were those the lower end Carvin dual 15s? The tall skinny ones? The band I was in before used those speakers. I think I know what you mean, but I recently listened to a live recording I did with them and the vocals (which were not me) sounded pretty clear in them. I sang through them a couple of times myself -although they were louder -they weren't as clear as the old PA with the Peavy 1x12s that we used before. That is why I feel comfortable with 12s, but if it was more of the speaker quality that was causing the muddiness... then that is a different story.

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Dual 15's typically need more EQing to sound good. IMO, nothing is worse than a cheap dual 15 cabinet. They don't reproduce lows well because of the crappy quality of the woofers. Using 2 is more an excuse to use even lower end components. Also, the horn has a hard time overcoming the 2 woofers. So you end up with a lot of midbass and the cabinet sounds muddy. To some extent it can be eq'ed out, but there's only so much you can do.

 

With regard to the dual 12 Nady's - I've never heard anyone talk about them here and I've been hanging around daily since December of 2001. In fact, of the nearly 1000 posts I have, 99% have been on this forum.

 

I have heard neither speaker. I'm going off recommendations from posters here that have earned my trust. I agree that 12's and dual 12's are good for vocals. I'm just looking at the particular 12" dual cabinet you're considering and there are 2 warning signs (well 3 - the NADY name is a warning to stay away for me)

 

1) A dual 12" cabinet for $150. - Think about it. They have to have 2 woofers, a compression driver, crossover, cabinet, carpet & hardware and still make a profit.

 

2) For a dual woofer system, the power handling is kind of a joke. Less than 200W RMS. This is another sign the components are complete crap.

 

Ulitmately it would be great if you could inspect and listen to these, and other "bargin" cabinets. This probably isn't possible. Single 15 is going to be a bit more versitile and absolutely fine with subs under it down the road. The benefits you've heard about in dual 12's are for REAL dual 12 cabinets. The NADY is a pretender. I see no benefit here.

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Actually,Nady lists the power handling as 750 watts program peak or peak program,whatever that means. Is it program,peak,or somewhere between the two? I'm guessing you could throw 300 watts at them with no major problems if you aren't totally stupid about it. I'm guessing they are clearing them out at manufacturers cost or below because they didn't sell. Which seems kind of silly. Maybe the reason they didn't sell is because none of the big companies carried them. I've seen the THS single 12 and single 15" in just about every magazine and tons of websites,but never the 2x12. I didn't know they even made one until someone posted the Nady closeout link on Silly's other thread. I have heard the single 12 and 15 and they don't sound too bad,so I'm assuming these would be ok also,especially at the price.

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Man guys... thanks for doing your research!;) Tomorrow will be the big day when I must decide. Okay Tbonehead -or anyone else who'd know this -tell me how you manage your bullfrogs. Like how you place them -and do they at least have side handles. If you can tell me a really clever way that you did this, I might just consider these 'cause they seem like souped up versions of the American Audio speakers. ....However I still have not counted the NADYs out -I am just trying to gather as much info as I can right now.

 

Oh yeah -for abzurd: they don't talk about the dual 12s here, but they do talk about the THS. Just do a search on THS or NADY THS if you haven't already (you guys rule!)

 

I really really appreciate the help you guys have given me!

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Originally posted by SilleeSpyder

Man guys... thanks for doing your research!
;)
Tomorrow will be the big day when I must decide. Okay Tbonehead -or anyone else who'd know this -tell me how you manage your bullfrogs. Like how you place them -and do they at least have side handles. If you can tell me a really clever way that you did this, I might just consider these 'cause they seem like souped up versions of the American Audio speakers. ....However I still have not counted the NADYs out -I am just trying to gather as much info as I can right now.


Oh yeah -for abzurd: they don't talk about the dual 12s here, but they do talk about the THS. Just do a search on THS or NADY THS if you haven't already (you guys rule!)


I really really appreciate the help you guys have given me!

Yes,they have side handles. I really didn't need another pair of speakers when I bought them(I ordinarily use a pair of 2x12 mid-high cabs per side,along with a pair of Sonic T18E Earthquake type scoop cabs per side)but the price was great and I was curious. I tried them once and they sound nice and clear,especially for the price. I just stack them on top of the subs.

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I know about the Nady THS line. I am looking purely at price and practicality. For $200 you don't have much worth considering. Also if you are looking this cheap the chances of budgeting subs anytime soon isn't all that great. All I'm saying is that for a full range cabinet I don't think cheap as dirt, less than 200W RMS, NADY speakers are the way to go. But then they are cheap as dirt so if you don't like them they are practically disposable. Certainly will get you buy for practice.

 

Honestly, for $250 the best blend of sound and practicality is probably going to be the Yamaha Club Series IV 15's. Cast frame woofer, 2" compression driver (albeit with a 1" or so throat). I have heard these. Apart from the particle board factor, these are nice "recreattional speakers". They are being discontinued for the V series, which seems marginally better (speakon inputs and heavier grills) Free shipping to boot (At MF anyway).

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Well it is between these three and I did read up on the American Audio speakers and I keep reading about how they are so comparable to the Yamaha 15s. I wish I could hear them all before I buy them... so I'll try a new approach and see what you guys think using your imaginations.

 

Okay imagine you were to hear my band in a club with about 100 people or so. We play classic metal, my vocals have been said to be "similar" to James Hetfield's ...and Justice for All sound. My voice is kind of deep, but not all that deep. (wish I could send clips). My band's instruments (amps) include: Marshall VS100R halfstack, Ampeg BA 210sp, old CB drum set with quiet kick (I have Beta 52 though), and me -and I am pretty loud.

 

Okay so now it is time to use your imaginations.

 

Imagine my band in a 100 person club -or even outside like in a backyard (two most likely places we'll be playing). You are at three of my shows. How did each of them seem to sound to you?

 

show #1: Our band is using a PA that includes two NADY THS 2012s being powered by 200 watts each, we propped them up three feet. (all 3 include the options of just me singing alone in the PA and the option of the drums being mic'd)

 

show #2: Our band is using the bullfrog speakers mentioned earlier. We were able to prop 'em up some, about three feet. They are being powered by 200 watts each.

 

show #3: Our band is using the American Audio speakers, they are pole mounted five feet up. We are also powering them with 200 watts each.

 

So describe how the vocals seemed to sound during the shows and how they compared to each other. #2 Describe how the instruments sounded in the mix. This might really help me decide.

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Originally posted by abzurd



Honestly, for $250 the best blend of sound and practicality is probably going to be the Yamaha Club Series IV 15's. Cast frame woofer, 2" compression driver (albeit with a 1" or so throat). I have heard these. Apart from the particle board factor, these are nice "recreattional speakers". They are being discontinued for the V series, which seems marginally better (speakon inputs and heavier grills) Free shipping to boot (At MF anyway).

 

 

I keep thinking that I should stock up on those club IVs. Dirt cheap and can be used as anything; drum monitor, sidefills, vocal monitor, mains, emergency bass cabinet (yes I've done it) among other reasons.

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