Keyboard amp?

[Rbts]

May I ask a keyboard amp question?

 

The wife's son plays keyboards. The guys at the music store sold them a Peavy KB-3 combo amp and told them they would be happy with it.

 

He is not happy with it. He wants a "big" sound. This thing is a 60 watt combo with a 10" speaker.

 

Shopping around, I was surprised to find that Like even Roland's combo keyboard amps were 180 watts through a 15 and a horn (KC 550). (Even their newest KC 1000 is only 310 watts)I was expecting more like 600 watts for some reason.

 

Whe he plays it is usually just vocals through the PA, and he is expected to carry the whole room with his amp... maybe 200 people.

 

How much rig does a keyboard player need to do this? Any ideas? Would a 4- 10 caqbinet sound better than the 15 w a horn idea possibly?

 

I will go search the keyboard forum, but thought I wuld ask here where I have come to respect people.

[groove.77]

I dunno, but what my dad rigged for me back in my key playing days was pretty cool.

 

He had one 15'' cabinet on top of some EV subwoofer with some QSC amp. I put that thing behind me and easily filled a school gym.

 

I dunno - maybe get him a pair of the Yamaha club 12s while they're still cheap and an RMX1450?

[ezstep]

My current keyboardist (mostly piano w/strings) uses a Peavey 50-60 watt with 10" speaker for stage monitor only. He runs a direct line into the FOH. (Trust me - you have heard this guy on several records.)

 

The keyboardist before him used a Peavey 100 watt/1x12 speaker and used it for stage monitor only. Everything else (including the "big" sound) went through the p.a. The one before him didn't use any amp at all - just plugged in direct and came back through the monitors.

 

I honestly don't remember ANY keyboardist that I have worked with who didn't run through the p.a.

[groove.77]

Maybe it's a PA popsicle that can't handle the LF of a keyboard?

[Rbts]

They don't have a PA.. but are using what other's let them, and usually apparently it is some mics on stage that go to some speakers on sticks, yes..

 

Audiopile, you are talking about the Roland KC - 150?

[Rbts]

Sorry,

 

My knowledge base is not broad, I had been searching for keyboard amps everywhere, and this had not shown up, but a whole line of Roland KC amps had.

 

This is big enough to carry a room?

 

I found A different one that is interesting... Barbetta Sona 41 C

 

which I have seen several reviews of...but it is sort of obscure I think... making me cautious. I am not sure how to do those hyper links... but the site is barbetta.com

 

Thanks Mark.. SR

[GCDEF]

 

Originally posted by ezstep My current keyboardist (mostly piano w/strings) uses a Peavey 50-60 watt with 10" speaker for stage monitor only. He runs a direct line into the FOH. (Trust me - you have heard this guy on several records.) The keyboardist before him used a Peavey 100 watt/1x12 speaker and used it for stage monitor only. Everything else (including the "big" sound) went through the p.a. The one before him didn't use any amp at all - just plugged in direct and came back through the monitors. I honestly don't remember ANY keyboardist that I have worked with who didn't run through the p.a.

 

 

That's the way mine does it to. He has an old 100 watt powered mixer plugged into a 12" floor monitor that he listens to. The rest is the PA.

[Scodiddly]

The JC ("jazz chorous") is a guitar amp, somewhat similar to the Fender Twin Reverb but solid-state instead of tube-based. Probably a lot cheaper to find used than a Twin these days.

[Audioeast]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile Step up to either a Roland JC-120 or Fender Twin... that's generally plenty spanky good for most any keyboardist... and except for the hefty pricetag, I bet your keyboardist will be patting themselves on the back everytime they use it. The other weekend I worked with an act that was running a mountian of keys through a Fender Blues Deville... and that worked pretty well for them as well.

 

 

Mark! usually i take your advice as knowlegable .....so please help me understand why anyone would play a fullrange instrument through a guitar amp!?????

 

I would strongly reccomend against this.....i've heard it and it's painfull.........you need somthing that can produce 20hz-20khz for keys.....i would look at a powered PA speaker/monitor and a small mixer - this will work wonders for you and can be helpfull at rehersal for vox and acoustic instruments as well......plus it can also act as a DI box for live applications

[Rbts]

I am still listening and soaking in whateveryone says...

 

The two strongest recomendations that I am getting right now are for the Barbetta Sona 41, and the Sound Motion KP 200 s.

 

My thoughts have been that a keyboard amp ismore or less a small PA, owing to the full freq spectrum that has to be reproduced...

 

The Barbetta web site says that they offer this same amp as a powered pa cabinet, (and this model has a different input area with just one input going to it) I think it would probably sound pretty good... I have reviews from a couple of keyboard players that say it is what they were always looking for... cost around $ 700.

 

Another guy over on the keys thread here swears by the Motion Sound KP 200, and it has somenice features too... around the same price.

 

Both of these are apparently plenty powerful to compete on stage with a loud drummer and guitar band (begging the question of why should a player have to "compete"??)... and both are using double 10" speakers, leading me to think that the sound if in fact it were "loud" enough, would be very nice and punchy.... not muddy like maybe a 15 w/ a horn combo would maybe tend to be?

 

Just thoughts... SR (Thanks everyone for your comments.)

[SteelyD2]

I have to agree with Dan here (sorry Mark). A guitar amp might work OK for someone doing only Rhodes piano or even a B3 sound, but definitely not for realistic piano patches or strings or synth or...

 

My keyboardist uses an older Roland KC 100 (60W, 1x12) for his stage monitor and it works fine because of our low volume. I also happen to like the sound of the Roland KC500 (discontinued), but it's a rather big, bulky beast. It has always seemed to me that a good, stout powered speaker is the perfect application for a keyboard monitor/backline amp. Higher performance alternates include the Mackie SRM450, JBL Eon G2 15 and the EV SxA100. There are others, but I'm less familiar with them. They're all relatively light, compact and versatile.

 

Peace,

D

[ashivraj]

the description on the JC120 manual thing says that it's been designed to imitate a flat response... so could it be possible that the amp is designed so as not color the sound intentionally? could it really be????

 

i mean granted, 2x12" sounds nothing like 1x18 + 1x12 + 1x1, or even 1x12 + 1x1, but maybe flat-ish within the frequency range of the speakers?

 

AS

[mrcpro]

Here's my take on this...from a keyboard player's veiwpoint...one who's been gigging steadily for the last 35 years:

 

JC-120s and Fender Twins were (and still are) popular amps for vintage electromechanical keyboards like Fender Rhodes and Wuriltzer electric pianos, and Clavinets. If you really want the retro sound of these instruments it's part of the signal chain...like guitar amp to a guitar. Those of us who are using today's digital equipment, however, want the cleaner sound of a accurate power amp and a two-way cab. This is especially true for digital pianos...my staple instrument. When I'm playing in a group I use one or sometimes two of my homemade two-ways on the floor just behind me and give the mains a signal from an XLR out on my mixer.

[agedhorse]

Just like why would anybody want to play a Rhodes, CP-70, P-Bass, Strat etc... it's what works for them.

 

The JC-120 is still popular, the twin not so much any more, I also see some bass amps being used as keyboard amps, so it's not uncommon.

 

Like Dan said, it's not my preference either, but there's a ton of JC-120's out there being used successfully.

[Kennykeys]

Last thing first;

1) As far as my experience goes, the deal with a JC120 is that it is a well known amp, most every sound company/backline provider will have one, and it delivers a predictable keyboard response: loud, very clean, fairly flat and full range enough for most keyboard apps, and it will punch and cut through the clatter for onstage monitoring. It always has/always will do the job just fine.

2) Now, for personal/private onstage keyboard amps, many players are using powered PA speakers (Mackies, JBL Eons, etc), often two for stereo. Hi-Fi, full range, works real good, choose size /power/options (such as mixer/preamp included or not) to meet your particular needs.

3) Designated "keyboard" amps: Often these are disappointing, with the major complaints being; not enough power and poor sound (sound boxy or otherwise color the sound.) This varies widely by brand and model. Certain models from Barbetta and Motion Sound are held in higher regard.

Best to do some searches on the keyboard forums ( I'm not good at links, so check forums at: Harmony Central, Keyboard mag, Yahoo User Groups). It's all been discussed in depth.

[Daniel Smart]

Ugh, Don't know about that Peavey amp, but it sounds very similar to the KB/A 60 or whatever it is that I've used.

 

Sounds awful and doesn't even handle enough volume to cut it as a personal monitor for a full range piano - particularly in the bass registers where it breaks up badly.

 

Is there a reason they're not putting the keys through the PA though - that's going to be the best solution no matter what type of amp he ends up with.

 

-Dan

[Rbts]

I'm laughing with Mark... andDan...

 

Yea, the Peavey is a KB3.. which is about 60 watts as far as I can tell... and the reason that they are not using a PA is that A) they don't have one, and B) when someone provides one, they don't know how to use it, and nobody wants to show them, he says "they just put a mike up there for us to use, but we are supposed to do all the rest".

 

So yea, Mark... I have had the same thought... they have already been plugging a mic into his Roland KC 100, which is a practiceamp as far as I can see... (or like someone said a stage amp on a nice quiet stage )... so if he gets any more of a PA type thing they will take it over immediately.

 

Also, if we get him a louder amp, then he will get hooked on the loudness, and he won't ever want to turn down, (and sound good) when they DO have a PA to work with.

 

I am really struggling with what I want to think about it all. He has not been an easy lad to work with, although he is a pretty good keyboard player as far as I can tell... for what that is worth... I would like to help him if only I can figure out what "helping" him would be.

 

ACtually right now we arerunning the line out of the Roland KC 100 into the Peavey, so he is running about 110 watts supposedly, andwho knows, maybe that will be enough for now?

 

I am grateful for all the comments, truely I am.

[Audioeast]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile I have no argument there. Sure, a 18 x 10 x 1 cab and amp would be great, technically. It's just that I have a stack of a few hundred riders here with the JC-120 specified first on the list about 80% of the time. I'm no keyboardist, but my recommendation is based on those I've worked with. And, maybe it has to do with the sound they want? Sure, a full range speaker cab is gonna cover the spectrum... but maybe the combo amp sounds better for the application? The JC-120 works for Edgar Winter, Ray Charles, etc... I dunno why those guys use it. Maybe they don't know what they're doing?

 

 

now if were talkin organ tones for blues.....yup the jc is a great choice but other than that...i'd want some high end....and some low end too....but i'm also no keyboardist so wtfdik

[mucsusn]

The earlier suggestion of a Mackie 459 or JBL Eon was an excellent one. One cab would do the trick, two would smoke. The Mackie's cabinet is configured for a pole mount or as a monitor wedge, and I've personally heard both on gigs. The Mackie's specs are 300W to the lows and 159 to the horn. Sweet sound.

 

Carvin also makes a pretty beastly keyboard amp in several configs. 1000 watts into two ohms (very high current/headroom capability) with seven inputs, 4 band master eq and seperate live and DI levels. The speaker configs are a 1x15, 2x8 plus horn box, and a 2x10 plus horn wedge. I have heard both, and they are definitely up to the task of modern digital pianos and workstations.

 

The JC-120's have been a staple for Rhodes and Wurlie rigs for years, but I don't think they have the headroom needed for a modern rig.

 

For those yearning to tailor sounds, my current solution with my Fantom-S88 is a Roland KC-500, and I route my Rhodes, clav and B-3 patches to a different output and put a presonus tube preamp inline for some 12ax7 saturation. It sounds pretty sweet and has lots of on-stage balls, with an adjustable balanced out available when I play with a sound man.

[Rbts]

Just to let you know...

 

We ended up getting a PA style rig for the lad. I hope he uses it reasonably. We got it at our local music store, and I am sure it will work out alright. It sounds pretty good generally, although I am sure there might have been better over all options... it will give him decent sound, and plenty of power. It is a Peavey 600F powered mixer, ran as bridged mono into a single Peavey SPX 2 speaker. The bridged rating on the amp is 420 watts, and the speaker is supposed to handle 700 watts, so hopefully he will keep it turned down, enjoy the headroom, and even if he does not, hopefully he won't blow up his cabinet.

 

I think I learned a lot from researching this deal, and appreciate everyone's thoughts and comments. I hope it works out for him. One thing I think I learned, is that there is no perfect answer? Take care!

[agedhorse]

Should work just fine.

[groove.77]

Originally posted by Audiopile Well... since you mentioned this, here is a copy of an e-mail I recently received from a customer concerning a powered mixer he purchased from me to use as a PA: "I recently acquired an EMP1050, the unfortunate thing is.., that when i was messing around.., i used it as a guitar amp and...... it works and sounds great..... Then, I used an audio analyser to get a Fender Twin sound...works great! Same harmonics....cool... Just thought you should know....Oh i used a old Acoustic 470 speaker cabinet. ( over kill ).. and way more power. ( i don't play that way ...te he)."