Members troyri Posted November 23, 2003 Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 Do you guys have problems getting the FOH volumes up without having to cut the eq's down to nothing. I know our equipment isn't the best but I can't get the main sliders up to 0 without cutting eq's almost all of the way down. I am not an expert sound guy and I also play the guitar so I don't have the time to cut each and every frequency as it feedsback but I was wandering if you guys could tell me which freguencies cause the most feedback from your experience? Gear is as follows. 2x JBL SF252x JBL mp400 subsYamaha cp2000 for subsPeavey pv1200 for mainsall sm 58's for vocals and 57's for instruments.Yamaha emx20 board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tommy Tune Posted November 23, 2003 Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 Try to put your speakers further out front and farther apart. If you are facing them toward you, invest in some monitors. If you have them behind your mics........that's a loosing cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted November 23, 2003 Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 Originally posted by troyri Do you guys have problems getting the FOH volumes up without having to cut the eq's down to nothing. I know our equipment isn't the best but I can't get the main sliders up to 0 without cutting eq's almost all of the way down. I am not an expert sound guy and I also play the guitar so I don't have the time to cut each and every frequency as it feedsback but I was wandering if you guys could tell me which freguencies cause the most feedback from your experience? Gear is as follows.2x JBL SF252x JBL mp400 subsYamaha cp2000 for subsPeavey pv1200 for mainsall sm 58's for vocals and 57's for instruments.Yamaha emx20 board. Unless you are playing a really funky room,there shouldn't be that much of a problem on FOH. Make sure your vocal mics and monitors are a bit behind the front line(an imaginary line going from the left mains to the right mains. Are you sure it is the mains and not your monitors feeding back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyri Posted November 23, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 I am sure its the mains. We have monitors and I don't have any problem with them. Mostly I get a low hum feedback but when I get that taken care of and really start pushing everything I start getting the high mids feedback and before the night is over my eq's are down all of the way. I do understand that to a point if you are turning down the eq so you can turn up the mains you are defeating the purpose I think unless you are getting the mains up alot more than you are cutting the eq's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 23, 2003 Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 EQ sliders all the way down is a key sign that something's not right, either with the equipment, set-up or operation skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyri Posted November 23, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 I have know doubt it is the person running the sounds experience (me) I am just looking for some help from you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyri Posted November 23, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 About where do your sliders end up being? I drawing would be a helpful start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyri Posted November 23, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 Do you guys ring out the mains and moniters every show? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gadget69 Posted November 23, 2003 Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 Yo,A few things,1. get a good explanation of and do a system gain structure setup.http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/studyjump.php?pdf=gainabove is a good place to learn about this sound practice and this:http://www.prosoundweb.com/studyhall/is a great place to learn more about the craft of sound re-enforcememnt.Now get a good test cd with tracks for evaluating and setting the system up here is a downloadable one and make sure to get the implimintation notes alsohttp://binkster.net/extras.shtml#cdnow when set up play a good cd through the system and couple this with #4 and set the system up to sound good on this music;examples of cd's TOTO, Steely Dan, Police, sheffield labs"my CD,alpine test cd... 2. If you have an extra "aux" send check out the article on aux fed subs. It will cure MANY low end howl problems and clean up your sound in general. 3. It is nearly impossible to mix from stage and do a good job,it can be done but the muso's need to have infinate control of their portion of the mix.Tipical problem freq's are 80 250, 500, 1000-2000 area, 5k 10k if too present. 4. you can "ring" the system out to determine the problem freq's by having each mic on and set to a pretty normal level and then running each slider up till it causes a regeneration. This is the max point for that freq, now bring it down from there to the point where it sounds best to you and balances well with the mix... go to the next band and do the same thing till you have covered all bands. 5. I believe if you really want to make the most out of your system you should get a DBX driverack. It will make such a dramatic improvement in your sound you will BE STUNNED! And it has a feedback eliminator to boot! You should really look into it.I did and I am soooo blown away by this thing! I assume you have a crossover and you mentioned an EQ (is it on the mixer?) If it is the mixer eq it probably hasn't got the resolution to help much with specific feedback. You really should learn all you can and hang out on the PROSOUNDWEB LAB and read what other engineers post about things they are asked about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 23, 2003 Members Share Posted November 23, 2003 Originally posted by gadget69 5. I believe if you really want to make the most out of your system you should get a DBX driverack. It will make such a dramatic improvement in your sound you will BE STUNNED! And it has a feedback eliminator to boot! You should really look into it.I did and I am soooo blown away by this thing! I assume you have a crossover and you mentioned an EQ (is it on the mixer?) If it is the mixer eq it probably hasn't got the resolution to help much with specific feedback. If you are ending up with a bunch of eq sliders all the way down and still feedback problems, the DRPA is way too complex of a way to solve a very basic problem. Work on the basics first, then go for the eye candy. The DRPA is a great solution, but not if you don't have a grasp of the basics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 24, 2003 Members Share Posted November 24, 2003 Originally posted by Audiopile 1) 125Hz -3dB2) 160Hz -2dB3) 1.6KHz -2dB4) 2KHz -3dB5) 2.5KHz -4dB6) 3.15KHz -3dB7) 4KHz -2dBThis was set in a real lively room with hard reflective surfaces in the X,Y, and Z axis (everywhere). This looks like a reasonable approach to solving room problems, using a bit of a fine touch rather than an audio sledgehammer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RickJ Posted November 24, 2003 Members Share Posted November 24, 2003 Please read Mark's post (above) again and notice two very important things:1. There are no boosts; only cuts. Boosting is not out of the question; but it is frowned upon by most SE's because it usually means that the system is not delivering the sound of a specifc instrument (punch in a kick drum or presence in a vox). The result is that every other source suffers -- you rob Peter (all of the other channel strips) to pay Paul (the one channel strip EQ that should be adjusted).2. No single freq band is cut more than 6dB. Adjacent bands will interact and cause phase cancellation issues if there is more than 6dB of cut or boost from one to the next. The true sign of a pro is an EQ setting like the one Mark described above. For all intents and purposes, most of today's quality packaged FOH speaker systems are fairly flat. The only EQ adjustments that are necessary are those caused by the room's characteristics. Heavy EQ is a symptom of other issues. One possibility: Does one of your singers have a weak voice that needs lots of mic gain? Does he or she sing more than 1/4" or so off the mic? Your system may be capable of, say, 100dB of gain before feedback (GBF) with one vocal mic open. Add a second mic and you reduce that GBF by 3dB, to 97dB. Add two more and the system now feeds back at 94dB. Not enough to get those vox over the instruments. Do all of the singers' mics need to be as loud as possible all of the time? If you take turns singing lead and bup*, do you back off the mic when you're singing bups? Instead, stay on the mic all the time and try reducing the bup mics to instrument levels -- usually -6dB. You've allowed the bups to be placed more appropriately in the mix, and you've also increased the GBF for the lead singer. * bup = backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyri Posted November 24, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 24, 2003 Thanks for all of the responses. I do not know about the GBF so I don't know if the system will do what you said. I will try the eq settings the way they were suggested as a start. We have a good (250-300 people) gig coming Wed this week I will let you know how it goes. Right now the DRPA is out of the question though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyri Posted November 24, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 24, 2003 Audiopile I am not sure I understand what you said about the GBF (if the sound from your speakers are louder at the mic than what you are trying to mic). Could you please explain that is newbie terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members troyri Posted November 24, 2003 Author Members Share Posted November 24, 2003 Now that I completely understand. Thanks for the post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Drumtech Posted November 24, 2003 Members Share Posted November 24, 2003 Originally posted by Audiopile Let me further expound on this topic:Americans are notorious for "wanting to push a button to solve a problem", and who can blame us? Pushing a button is easy. I had a girlfriend who used to drive my car and she would adjust the heater output in my car by adjusting the fan speed, and then would complain that the windows in my POS would fog-up all the time. . That's funnier than {censored} Mark... Excellent Tutorial... Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audioeast Posted November 25, 2003 Members Share Posted November 25, 2003 nice post/explanation Mark..... i like the "most americans" part ....but most woman would tell you thats a Mans trait ......always trying to solve problems with the anti suck knob..........(is that not what BBE sells - a sonic unsuckafier? - ya those work??) Anyhoo don't you have a rig to build........get to work! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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