Members matt emery Posted March 28, 2004 Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 OK here's the deal. In a few weeks i will finally start running the bands PA. This gear has all been aquired before i arrived on the scene, but it's what we have. There probably isn't one bit of it i would choose to go out and buy but i think we can start looking at upgrading peice by peice. Band is a 5 peice corporate entertainment show. Frank Sinatra to Justin Timberlake. No doubt to Blues brothers. Failry popy, not too much ROCK. 2 lead vox plus 2 backup's, bass, gtr, 4 peice kit and sequences run of a minidisk player. Not mega volume either, just good full clear sound. FOH - 2 Jbl Mpro 225's (double 15 ). sound ok. big, heavy and impossible to move by yourself. poor match for subs. Subs - 2 JBL MPro 418's (single 18). Probably the best of everything we have. Amps - 2 Laney CA3000. officially these things put out 1500 a side into 4 ohms. according to a fairly well known and respected local amp tech, it's more like 300! either way its not 1500, and they have an awfully annoying non defeatable limiter which turns the amp off alltogether. oh and they're heavy and 3 (or 4) RU's each. Desk - mackie cfx something or other. Gain structure makes me vomit. Enough chanels, JUST. I think the rack and floor toms are somehow run into a stereo input? No one really had anything better than a mackie vlz over here. I have never seen the fabled mix whiz, king of rackmountable clubrig mixers, and i have been a pro for 4 years. Processing - hmmmm, will soon have a crossover (yay), a cheap 2 x 31 band eq, and an ART compressor/limiter Monitors - 1 powered laney wedge and one passive. they're 12's and sound fairly ordinary, but they seem to have a bit of grunt. don't know much about these. would love to go in ear one day but thats down the trfack a while yet i think. So what would you get rid of first? second? third? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lucho_84 Posted March 28, 2004 Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 with all due respect. and i say that because i'm gonna say this really nicely as oppose to some of the other fellas here(not that they say it mean or rude but sometimes it comes off like that) here are a few things you're gonna hear or might hear. "if you're a pro for 4 years now, then why don't you know?" or may be this. "you've never heard of the mix wiz? what planet do you live on?" but yeah, i would suggest the mix wiz and you can get them on audioeast.com for a great price with great hospitality and good customer service. also. they're gonna tell you to get new power amps. the qsc rmx series is good if you're looking into great sound at a great price. but my knowledge is limited. wait for the pro's to come around and give you a better suggestion. they'll know exactly what to say and recomend. mine are just suggestions. they'll also ask for alot more info to help you out better. also what kind of mic's d you use? do you control from the stage or do you have a sound guy? just a general question for anyone who reads this thread. if you don't mind me asking, what exactly make you a "pro" in the pa world?? what defines it? experience? checkbook? pa system(obviously a factor) thanx for the replies and hope this helps and just so you know. don't drop a dollar on the ce series by crown. i push my crest ca6 harder than i do my crown ce1000 and the crown gets so hot. the crest stays pretty much room temp no matter what. hope this helps... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 28, 2004 Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 Lucho, I don't know where the "pro for 4 years" comes from... unless the post was edited. Things are different in Australia, gear is way more expensive then what we see here in the states, and much is really not available at all. Shipping costs can be astronomical. As far as the laney amps power ratings, they should not shuit down unless you are doing something very wrong and they are protecting themselves, or perhaps it could be a terrible design but unlikely to miss the power mark by 300%. Are the amps being operated in bridge mode into a 4 ohm cabinet, and not rated for such? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted March 28, 2004 Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by matt emery FOH - 2 Jbl Mpro 225's (double 15 ). sound ok. big, heavy and impossible to move by yourself. poor match for subs. Amps - 2 Laney CA3000. officially these things put out 1500 a side into 4 ohms. according to a fairly well known and respected local amp tech, it's more like 300! either way its not 1500, and they have an awfully annoying non defeatable limiter which turns the amp off alltogether. Ok,I don't understand either of these paragraphs. All you need is a little two-wheel hand truck/cart and they would be easy as heck to move. I've moved speakers about three times that size by myself with a simple hand truck,including the old JBL double-scoops.(48" x 36" x 30") And then I really don't understand your comments about the power amps. Why would a limiter make them shut down? If anything,it would have a tendency to do the opposite,since the limiter kind of holds the amp back from overdoing itself. Are you running it below its allowable impedance? If not,there must be a problem somewhere. BTW,how are you running two mid/high cabs and two subs through two stereo amps without a crossover? Anyway,I would get a good EQ first of all and obviously a crossover. The crossover for obvious reasons. And with the EQ,you should be able to tame some of that overbearing mid-bass mud that I'm sure is pretty overwhelming with your speaker combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted March 28, 2004 Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 BTW,are the newer Peavey or Soundcraft Spirit mixers fairly available in your area? They seem pretty decent for the budget area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 28, 2004 Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by tlbonehead BTW,are the newer Peavey or Soundcraft Spirit mixers fairly available in your area? They seem pretty decent for the budget area. I'd say you need better amps first, then mixer, the mains you have are fine (get a trolley - $30 from supercheap auto or equivelent). Ok, Aussie viewpoint here. In sydney not brisbane but if anything Sydney should be better off. Mackie mixers, behringer mixers, Phonic mixers and ancient (mk III) Peavey mixers are all I've really seen regularly out here - nothing cheap and not much above entry level. Cannon sound seems to be the only place to cater for real sound people in any way. They have the following Allen and Heath mixers: http://www.cannonsound.com.au/a+h_mixwizard.htmlhttp://www.cannonsound.com.au/a+h_pa28.htmlhttp://www.cannonsound.com.au/a+h_gl2200.html They also have a pretty decent range of amps: http://www.cannonsound.com.au/poweramps.html Venue has some mixers and amps:http://www.venuemusic.com.au/Products.asp?ProdID=3212http://www.venuemusic.com.au/SubCategory.asp?CatID=72&SubCatID=88http://www.venuemusic.com.au/SubCategory.asp?CatID=71&SubCatID=85 Good deals come up second hand from time to time (peavey PV2000 for $660 on ebay a while ago). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members matt emery Posted March 28, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 a whole host of clarifications lucho: by pro, i meant musician not sound guy, that may not of been clear. What makes me a pro? I earn my primary income from being a musician (actually all of it, but that's another thead) I have heard of a mix whiz, hence i was able to make mention of it in my original post. I have just never seen one in person. The idea was to give the understanding that a mackie vlz serries was as good as it gets around here, generally speaking. I did forget to mention the mike's, beta 58's for lead vox, obviously not a problem. a pg series drum pack for the kit. obviously IS a problem. Aged horse: Yes i find it hard to believe that amps from a well known and respected companny like laney could fall THAT far short of their published specs. Very hard to find any info on these amps. They are 4 channels, but "bridgeable" to 2 channels providing 1500@4 ohms. Now thats obviously too much power for these boxes but (rated at 500watts by JBL, who recomend "up to 4 times this power" unlike aged horse who thinks 1 and a half is heaps) there is now way thats a realistic spec. As for the shut down, at first sign of clipping they turn off! altogether. Main power switch has to be turned off and then wait 5 seconds then turn on again to restore power. very annoying. Mainly solved with the limiter set to stop the amp from ever clipping at all. tlbonehead: Currently the dual 31 band is being used as a primitive crossover. not a great solution i know. the x over i am takeing as a given. Hand cart won't fit in current van. Also being replaced but that's another story. also doesn't help much with stairs, which is a fairly common occurence for lugs around here. Haven't seen any of the new peavy stuff out here yet. Lots of old mid 90's and earlier stuff floating around on the 2nd hand market. some soundcraft spirit gear available though. I think i am going to get a mix whiz though, probably import one from over there and still save about half the australian price. I pretty much now what i want the system to be, just not sure what my prioritys should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 28, 2004 Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by matt emery Haven't seen any of the new peavy stuff out here yet. Lots of old mid 90's and earlier stuff floating around on the 2nd hand market. some soundcraft spirit gear available though. I think i am going to get a mix whiz though, probably import one from over there and still save about half the australian price. Wouldn't recommend it. The dollars just gone down the drain again - it caught me out bying a multitrack recorder and I ended up having to pay $2750 us including postage, customs etc. for an item that would cost me $3000 here. You would have the added problem of a big step down transformer. It's a savings but not as much as you may hope - only worth it on 'really' high dollar and low shipping items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 28, 2004 Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by matt emery Aged horse: Yes i find it hard to believe that amps from a well known and respected companny like laney could fall THAT far short of their published specs. Very hard to find any info on these amps. They are 4 channels, but "bridgeable" to 2 channels providing 1500@4 ohms. Now thats obviously too much power for these boxes but (rated at 500watts by JBL, who recomend "up to 4 times this power" unlike aged horse who thinks 1 and a half is heaps) there is now way thats a realistic spec.As for the shut down, at first sign of clipping they turn off! altogether. Main power switch has to be turned off and then wait 5 seconds then turn on again to restore power. very annoying. Mainly solved with the limiter set to stop the amp from ever clipping at all. Ok, I downloaded a Laney CA-3000 servive manual and I think I can offer some insight into why you are experiencing the problems you are. Disclaimer... I am not an expert on Laney products, I am just commenting on what I see in relation to the problems you are experiencing. 1. The amp is a class D amp, with extensive microprocessor control over protection parameters. 2. Upon clipping the amp, there is a feature that essentially re-sets the class D control signal to prevent the output switches from sticking to the supply rail. This is an unusual feature that may have some unintended consequences. 3. There is a current sense feature that looks at the current in the amp channel's power supply line, and feeds that signal back to the u-proc. I don't see any compensation for phase angle to the load which could easily explain why the amp shuts down prematurely into a REACTIVE 4 ohm load. Generally, voltage and current are used to determine the magnitude and phase angle of the load. My suggestion is that you operate it at 4 ohms per channel NOT BRIDGED and you will probably get suitable operation. Also, use the limiters... that should help the u-proc issue IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 28, 2004 Members Share Posted March 28, 2004 Originally posted by matt emery Aged horse: Yes i find it hard to believe that amps from a well known and respected companny like laney could fall THAT far short of their published specs. Very hard to find any info on these amps. They are 4 channels, but "bridgeable" to 2 channels providing 1500@4 ohms. Now thats obviously too much power for these boxes but (rated at 500watts by JBL, who recomend "up to 4 times this power" unlike aged horse who thinks 1 and a half is heaps) there is now way thats a realistic spec.As for the shut down, at first sign of clipping they turn off! altogether. Main power switch has to be turned off and then wait 5 seconds then turn on again to restore power. very annoying. Mainly solved with the limiter set to stop the amp from ever clipping at all. Ok, I downloaded a Laney CA-3000 servive manual and I think I can offer some insight into why you are experiencing the problems you are. Disclaimer... I am not an expert on Laney products, I am just commenting on what I see in relation to the problems you are experiencing. 1. The amp is a class D amp, with extensive microprocessor control over protection parameters. 2. Upon clipping the amp, there is a feature that essentially re-sets the class D control signal to prevent the output switches from sticking to the supply rail. This is an unusual feature that may have some unintended consequences. 3. There is a current sense feature that looks at the current in the amp channel's power supply line, and feeds that signal back to the u-proc. I don't see any compensation for phase angle to the load which could easily explain why the amp shuts down prematurely into a REACTIVE 4 ohm load. Generally, voltage and current are used to determine the magnitude and phase angle of the load. My suggestion is that you operate it at 4 ohms per channel NOT BRIDGED and you will probably get suitable operation. Also, use the limiters... that should help the u-proc issue IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members matt emery Posted March 29, 2004 Author Members Share Posted March 29, 2004 you never cease to amaze me aged horse. where did you find the service manual? i was unable to find any meaningful info on the web at all. Of course i should of known that your answer would revolve around nunning the amp not in bridged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members URSavage Posted March 29, 2004 Members Share Posted March 29, 2004 Good news, you've got noise - so that means you got money coming in. It is important to make sure that your upgrades are a step up and not sideways. 1) I'd replace the desk first. The Mix Wiz seems to be the hands down favourite round here. I would be very surprised if you couldn't find an A&H dealer somewhere in AUS... The Crest XR-20 also gets good reviews. 2) I know you said that you were going to get a crossover - but consider the dbx driverack 260. More money but gives you lots of features - crossover/eq/feedback suppression ... etc 3) Amps - I think these need to be considered in terms of your long term aim for your speakers. If you are gonna replace your speakers it makes good sense to match your amps. You make like to consider the new Yorkville powered speakers. Also seem to rate well. Good luck RUs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moody Posted March 29, 2004 Members Share Posted March 29, 2004 Originally posted by URSavage Good news, you've got noise - so that means you got money coming in. It is important to make sure that your upgrades are a step up and not sideways. 1) I'd replace the desk first. The Mix Wiz seems to be the hands down favourite round here. I would be very surprised if you couldn't find an A&H dealer somewhere in AUS... See my post above - with links. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cckmp Posted March 30, 2004 Members Share Posted March 30, 2004 Hi Matt, I'm also in Brisbane and know what it is like trying to get a look at half decent gear around here. I would look at upgrading the mixer first , as you say it only just meets your requirements for channels. I've seen the MixWix in use by some of the sound companies for smaller events ( Irish Music Festival) etc. IJS (according to web site) hire out one .. maybe they will let you have a look. I've basically dealt with the main music retailers around town and they don't have much of a range. I have bought a few things through IJS ( retail arm is Audio sales and Recording ) at Bowen Hills and they've treated me OK. I would be interested in any opinion you may have re any dealers in Brissie. Please PM if you wish. Also, it may be worth talking to some of the sound companies as they do sell off old gear and you might be able to get something at a good price. BTW, I've used the powered Laney wedge and it is passable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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