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Powered Mixer Suggestions for acoustic act


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Newbie needs help!

I am in an acoustic duo. I play guitar and sing and my partner playes acoustic bass and sings. When I first started gigging at coffee houses I was solo and my Carvin PA620 200 watt PA w/ 10" speakers was adequate. Since I now have a bass player and we are actually getting paid and playing out a lot, I'd like to upgrade. I've already upgraded the speakers to some Yamaha As312, 12" acoustic suspension speakers (8 ohms) and that has helped a lot. I got a Carvin 150 watt power amp and 2 spot monitors that I run off the 620 monitor output and they are loud enough for our volume level. My question is this: The speakers are rated for 300 watts. while they sound a lot better than the 10" Carvins I had, I still wish they had a little better bass response (apparently acoustic suspension speakers are capable of more bass than a ported speaker, but aren't as efficieant) and my partner is always saying we need more "Balls" in the vocals. We don't really need to be any louder. Right now I'm runnin the Carvin volume at about 3-4 on both the main and individual channel inputs for the venues we play.

Will upgrading to a 300 watt amp (since the speakers are rated at 300 watt) give me any better sound? I 've gotten opinions on other threads that 300 vs 200 watts will only give 2-3 more db and would be negligible. Not really looking for more volume, just the best quality the speakers are capable of.

I've read about the Alesis Gigamix 6FX and the Samson equiv (both rated at 300watts (x2) into 4 ohms). If upgrading to a 300 watt amp won't help much I'd just as soon spend $450.00 on something else. Help the newbie!

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Yes, you'd probably be wasting money going from 200watts to 300watts.

 

Ok, gonna hijack this thread for a minute. Since I do work for a company that makes powered mixers, I'm curious. Why are you looking at 2 brand new powered mixers from companies that have traditionally been very weak in the sound reinforcement market? Both of these mixers are just some cheap Chinese design they have slapped a their names on, just to jump on the powered mixer bandwagon.

 

Why would you overlook Peavey in this market? Is it a brand bias? You just don't like Peavey, or had a bad experience? Peavey has been making powered mixers for nearly 30 years, and power amps for longer than that, with some success I might add. So again, why would you choose a cheap Chinese knockoff product over a homegrown design from a proven US company? Looking at these mixers, they would be very comparable to our XR600G, and about the same price. Were you shopping by the numbers? The power ratings? I would be willing to bet that their 300 watts is closer to our 200 watts. But due to the severe lack of anything resembling specifications, it's a little hard to tell.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way, I'm just trying to do a little research and understand the market a little better. Obviously, you can tell I'm a little biased, but I'm also a little confused about your choices. Thanks for the help.

 

Anyone else that wants to help me with this, just chime in.

 

SoundMan

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Originally posted by SoundMan

Anyone else that wants to help me with this, just chime in.

SoundMan

 

Jim... it's just "cheap-cheaper-cheapest" syndrome. Quality is becoming less important and price is the easiest number to compare for the average consumer. I feel your pain though... every day!

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Unless Alesis really comes out and proves itself with their new powered mixer,I would abstain from being a guinea pig. I'd be far more apt to take a risk on the new Samson model. But I'd have to agree with Soundman here. The Peavey powered mixers have proven themselves for quite some time in that area. I'd take them far before any of the three that you mentioned,including your current Carvin. An XR684 or 696 would be a great choice. And your speakers,if I am recalling that model correctly,are a very poor choice for your application,IMO. I believe they are more in line with being a cross between a home stereo and studio monitor speaker. They are quite innefficient,if I am thinking of the right model. Something like 92db/watt. Maybe you should think about replacing them first?

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FWIW, I'll second the vote on the Peavey powered mixers. I play with a number of guys in a variety of different combinations and we've found that they're suitable for a wide variety of settings. They're especially good for acoustic material in intimate venues where high SPLs aren't necessary, but they'll also put out enough for a smallish outdoor gig. I love them so much I've got two!(XR6??) In fact, as I sit here and think about, all my personal SR gear, from PA's to guitar amps is, or has been, all Peavey. They're great bang-for-the-buck (the Classic 30, IMHO, is still the best sounding tube amp in it's class), built like tanks, almost universally available, and can he had cheap in the secondary market. Unlike Soundman, I'm not employed by Peavey, but he makes a valid point.

 

The Preacher

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At 90 db those are very inefficient PA speakers. Personally, I think you'd get a better return on your money investing in more efficient speakers than in more amp power. With that effeciency and a max power of 300 watts, you're going to run into the limitations of those speakers pretty quickly.

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Originally posted by RainsongDR1000

Newbie needs help!

I am in an acoustic duo. I play guitar and sing and my partner playes acoustic bass and sings. When I first started gigging at coffee houses I was solo and my Carvin PA620 200 watt PA w/ 10" speakers was adequate. Since I now have a bass player and we are actually getting paid and playing out a lot, I'd like to upgrade. I've already upgraded the speakers to some Yamaha As312, 12" acoustic suspension speakers (8 ohms) and that has helped a lot. I got a Carvin 150 watt power amp and 2 spot monitors that I run off the 620 monitor output and they are loud enough for our volume level. My question is this: The speakers are rated for 300 watts. while they sound a lot better than the 10" Carvins I had, I still wish they had a little better bass response (apparently acoustic suspension speakers are capable of more bass than a ported speaker, but aren't as efficieant) and my partner is always saying we need more "Balls" in the vocals. We don't really need to be any louder. Right now I'm runnin the Carvin volume at about 3-4 on both the main and individual channel inputs for the venues we play.

Will upgrading to a 300 watt amp (since the speakers are rated at 300 watt) give me any better sound? I 've gotten opinions on other threads that 300 vs 200 watts will only give 2-3 more db and would be negligible. Not really looking for more volume, just the best quality the speakers are capable of.

I've read about the Alesis Gigamix 6FX and the Samson equiv (both rated at 300watts (x2) into 4 ohms). If upgrading to a 300 watt amp won't help much I'd just as soon spend $450.00 on something else. Help the newbie!

I just went through a similar upgrade. I play in an acoustic trio with guitar, bass, vocals, and occasionally a drum machine. We originally used a Yorkville AP312 powered mixer and 2 EON 1500's as our mains. The EON's sounded pretty bad because they were under powered. So we added an QSC PLX 3402 power amp and bypassed the Yorkies power amp section. Sounded much better, but still didn't have decent bass response. So I went out and bought a pair of Cerwin Vega PSX-253's, which are absolutely amazing sounding speaker for the money. In your situation, the PSX-153 would be more than enough. Then we used the EON's powered by the AP312 as monitors. Then last weekend I bought a near mint pair of old Peavey 1210DL's for $50 for the pair. So this weekend we used the Peaveys via x-over @ 120hz in conjuction with the CV's (full-range) and OMG!!!. Our sound just totally came to life. The Peavey's somehow added a third and even fourth dimenion to our sound. Probably because we now have dual 15", 12", 10", 7" and tweeter each side. We don't even need monitors. This is now our new setup. It a lot to carry, but it sounds awesome. :D So to answer your question, ALOT more power and better speakers.

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Wow! Guess I should have posted this thread before I bought my speakers! I just bought them a few months ago and I'm stuck with them now. Read that 3-way acoustic suspension speakers would be more natural sounding and have a better bass response than, say, the Carvin 12"s or Yamaha SE 12".

Yamaha said that they would be less harse than the SE12" in my situation.

So assuming I'm going to have to stay with the Yamaha AS312,s (you are right, 90db, nominal impedance 8 ohms, max watt at 360) What power amp would you recommend. Could I get away with going as high as a 400 watt or 500 watt amp and not damage them?

 

Thanks again!

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Originally posted by RainsongDR1000

Wow! Guess I should have posted this thread before I bought my speakers! I just bought them a few months ago and I'm stuck with them now. Read that 3-way acoustic suspension speakers would be more natural sounding and have a better bass response than, say, the Carvin 12"s or Yamaha SE 12".

Yamaha said that they would be less harse than the SE12" in my situation.

So assuming I'm going to have to stay with the Yamaha AS312,s (you are right, 90db, nominal impedance 8 ohms, max watt at 360) What power amp would you recommend. Could I get away with going as high as a 400 watt or 500 watt amp and not damage them?


Thanks again!

 

 

Well, I'm not the audio "expert" some on this board are, but one thing I learned in business school is that when making decisions, you shouldn't be unduly influenced by what you have done in the past. By that I mean, the fact that you just bought those speakers, doesn't change the fact that they're going to limit you, and it's the sound of the speakers that you don't like, not your amp.

 

So, you can replace your amp, but your problems won't go away and you'll still be limited by your speakers. The best decision is to replace them. That you just bought them is irrelevent.

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Originally posted by RainsongDR1000

Wow! Guess I should have posted this thread before I bought my speakers! I just bought them a few months ago and I'm stuck with them now. Read that 3-way acoustic suspension speakers would be more natural sounding and have a better bass response than, say, the Carvin 12"s or Yamaha SE 12".

Yamaha said that they would be less harse than the SE12" in my situation.

So assuming I'm going to have to stay with the Yamaha AS312,s (you are right, 90db, nominal impedance 8 ohms, max watt at 360) What power amp would you recommend. Could I get away with going as high as a 400 watt or 500 watt amp and not damage them?


Thanks again!

Ok,I went and checked the specs on your speakers. Are you sitting down?:) The 360 watt rating is peak. Their true RMS rating(one one that really counts) is 90 watts. So I doubt highly if they would last with even close to the power that you want to throw at them,or the power needed to get your volume up. They just aren't a good choice at all for live music. Lets say the average efficiency rating for a 12" 2/3 way PA speaker is 96db. That would mean that even if your speakers would hold up pushing 200 watts into them,the other speakers could achieve similar volume with about 50 watts. No doubt they sound smooth,they are built more in the home stereo speaker method. But,these speakers are going to be your main problem in getting your volume up a little.

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Sorry Dude...

 

It is time to cut your losses and start all over.

 

Throwing out stuff that sounds bad is better than playing through it, no matter how recently you bought it.

 

You do not need truely top of the line stuff to play some ocffee houses, BUT...

 

If you play with stuff that is truely carppy, you will sound crappy no matter how well you play.

 

MAYBE... you could run the bass guitar ONLY through the stuff you have and just play and sing the rest of the instruments with no amplification? Keep it turneddown really low, and it might not hurt you too badly?

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Humbly... I agree that peavey makes some fine powered boards, (for what powered boards are good for) as does Mackie, frankly.. also, for the money, I would check out the ones that Mark has at audiopile.net. These are some very decent people who will do % 1000 better at customer service than any big firm,

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Originally posted by tlbonehead

Ok,I went and checked the specs on your speakers. Are you sitting down?
:)
The 360 watt rating is peak. Their true RMS rating(one one that really counts) is 90 watts. So I doubt highly if they would last with even close to the power that you want to throw at them,or the power needed to get your volume up. They just aren't a good choice at all for live music. Lets say the average efficiency rating for a 12" 2/3 way PA speaker is 96db. That would mean that even if your speakers would hold up pushing 200 watts into them,the other speakers could achieve similar volume with about 50 watts. No doubt they sound smooth,they are built more in the home stereo speaker method. But,these speakers are going to be your main problem in getting your volume up a little.

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Originally posted by tlbonehead

Ok,I went and checked the specs on your speakers. Are you sitting down?
:)
The 360 watt rating is peak. Their true RMS rating(one one that really counts) is 90 watts. So I doubt highly if they would last with even close to the power that you want to throw at them,or the power needed to get your volume up. They just aren't a good choice at all for live music. Lets say the average efficiency rating for a 12" 2/3 way PA speaker is 96db. That would mean that even if your speakers would hold up pushing 200 watts into them,the other speakers could achieve similar volume with about 50 watts. No doubt they sound smooth,they are built more in the home stereo speaker method. But,these speakers are going to be your main problem in getting your volume up a little.

 

So RMS rating is same as Noise (EIA RS-426) rating?

The program rating ins 180 watts, what's that?

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Originally posted by RainsongDR1000

The program rating ins 180 watts, what's that?

IF you never clip the amp and NEVER have any feedback you can run an amp that puts out 180wrms per channel into 8 ohms into them. If you are running them from the stage and playing an instrument or singing at the same time 1.5x rms rating is about the most you want in case you "loose it" for a moment - in this case 135wrms/channel into 8 ohms :) .

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