Members Thunderbroom Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 I've got a power amp and am in the beginning stages of getting a mixer for live use (and home recording). One of my bands opened for another band this past Saturday night in Chicago, and we ran through the other band's PA. They were using a Yamaha powered mixer and EV mains and floor monitors. The guy running their sound (the keyboardist) was singing its praises. This seemed like a more compact setup than having a mixer/power amp setup. I already own the power amp though. Is this just a preference issue or is there a compelling reason to go one way or the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 The biggest problem with a powered mixer is if you want to use the mixer out front. You'd then have to run very long speaker cables to the speakers, which usually isn't going to sound as good as running a line-level signal from the mixer back to amps on the stage that are closer to the speakers. Most powered mixers let you connect to external amps if you want to, but then you've paid for amps in the mixer you're not using. My band uses a Carvin C1644P powered mixer, which has power for 4 speakers. It has its advantages and disadvantages. For smaller gigs, we can use the mixer for main power and monitor power and run everything from stage and it works great. For larger gigs, we put the mixer out in the house and run the mains signal back to a seperate amp on the stage. We use the mixer's power and long speaker cables to run the monitors. This works, but there is a noticable loss of high end in the monitors that way. If I were starting again, I'd probably not go the powered mixer route, but seperates are more expensive and more work to set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members picker13 Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 Don't forget the third option: Mixer plus powered speakers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 Personally, I like discrete components for scalability, repairability and my hunch that the seperate amp is more rugged than the one refitted to be housed in a speaker or mixing board. Second on my list would be powered speakers. The amp and speaker are matched! To scale you add more speaker/amp combo's. The downside for me is spares and running power cords everywhere. If the amp in the speaker dies...your speaker is dead and out for repair. With discrete components, I carry backups. I have an amp that can replace a foh/monitor/sub amp in a pinch. So I feel I am a little more protected with seperate components...but I find the idea of having the perfect amp mated to the speaker interesting. It seems a more unlikely mating to have the amp in the mixer to me. Your kinda stuck when you want to uprgrade unless you want to patch around the amp all together or try and use it for monitors. I have a Mackie 808M and it works fine in my practice room but if I could get a do-over, I'd buy a more robust mixer and a seperate amp. Just my opinions and what works for my situations. Others will certainly have differing and valid viewpoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thunderbroom Posted May 6, 2005 Author Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 My power amp is a Yamaha CP2000. I used to use it for my bass rig but realized after slogging it around that I really didn't need to pump 2000w into 4 ohms. The CP2000 will pump 650w into 4 ohms in stereo. I'm thinking that two mains on poles at 8 ohms in one channel and two floor monitors at 8 ohms could be a nice starter setup. I think a setup like this would carry my rock band (the country band has its own PA) for our gigs. The larger clubs have PA's anyway. I'm really at a loss for which mains and monitors to get as well as a good quality, reasonably priced mixer with 12 - 16 channels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 That will work for small room "speaker on a stick" gigs. Little or no kick and bass. If you plan on getting subs, a 12" speaker cabinet would be nice. If you don't plan on getting subs...get a 15" speaker for maximum low-end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roabre999 Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 I've got a powered Yorkville Mixer, Powermax16, 16 channels, 2 - 800 watt amps for mains and 2 - 275watt amps for monitors. I have a yorkville snake, and it is designed with 2 sets of speaker cables built in to take the power to the snake. Then I just run additional speaker wire from the breakout box on the snake to the mains & monitors. There is also one set of line level returns that I use to run to my powered subs. Works really well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 Originally posted by robare99 I've got a powered Yorkville Mixer, Powermax16, 16 channels, 2 - 800 watt amps for mains and 2 - 275watt amps for monitors. I have a yorkville snake, and it is designed with 2 sets of speaker cables built in to take the power to the snake. Then I just run additional speaker wire from the breakout box on the snake to the mains & monitors. There is also one set of line level returns that I use to run to my powered subs. Works really well. WOW,you run speaker cables right next to the mic and line hookup stuff? And you run speaker wiring clear from the mixing area to the stage. Great if it works for you but for someone else asking,it is certainly not a recommended setup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 Originally posted by Thunderbroom My power amp is a Yamaha CP2000. I used to use it for my bass rig but realized after slogging it around that I really didn't need to pump 2000w into 4 ohms. The CP2000 will pump 650w into 4 ohms in stereo. I'm thinking that two mains on poles at 8 ohms in one channel and two floor monitors at 8 ohms could be a nice starter setup. I think a setup like this would carry my rock band (the country band has its own PA) for our gigs. The larger clubs have PA's anyway.I'm really at a loss for which mains and monitors to get as well as a good quality, reasonably priced mixer with 12 - 16 channels. If you get a rackmount mixer,you really can have something almost as simple as a powered mixer with lots more benefits. Get a rack that has regular spaces on the bottom and a mixer rack on top. Then you can keep most if not everything plugged in. Otherwise,a small rack and a regular mixer aren't much more effort,especially if you leave one end of your patch cables plugged in and have the other end labeled. As for mixer brands,depends on your budget. If you budget is in the $400-500 range,I'd check out Peavey and Soundcraft Spirit. If it is less or substantially less,there is lots of used stuff that would still sound good for a lot less money. For speakers,as mentioned,it depends on if you want any measureable low-end,which I feel is needed to sound somewhat authentic in your genre. That means subs. If not,you probably want to go with 15"s. I highly recommend the Cerwin Vega PSX153,which is a 15" 3-way cab with a horn loaded cone mid. Especially since PSSL is almost giving them away@ $279,which gets you an actual plywood box and no carpet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thunderbroom Posted May 6, 2005 Author Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 When we played Saturday night, I (bass) didn't go through the PA and filled the place with bass without running my amp past about 10 o'clock. The drums were sufficiently loud and were not mic'd. A friend's band has this mixer: Yamaha MG16/6FX 16-Input 6 Bus Mixer with DSP and highly recommends it. Opinions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 Originally posted by Thunderbroom When we played Saturday night, I (bass) didn't go through the PA and filled the place with bass without running my amp past about 10 o'clock. The drums were sufficiently loud and were not mic'd. A friend's band has this mixer: Yamaha MG16/6FX 16-Input 6 Bus Mixer with DSP and highly recommends it. Opinions? It'll work. Certainly not my first choice but probably a better choice than that "B" brand. You should slide by with no bass in the mains. The reason for the drums in the mains isn't as much about volume as it is about tone. Its impossible to sound like high energy rock without having that bottom octave from the kick drum present and accounted for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Thunderbroom Posted May 6, 2005 Author Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 Originally posted by tlbonehead Its impossible to sound like high energy rock without having that bottom octave from the kick drum present and accounted for. Would it be passable to run the drums (kick at a minimum and maybe a condenser or two over the rest of the kit) through 15's for a small gig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 Originally posted by Thunderbroom Would it be passable to run the drums (kick at a minimum and maybe a condenser or two over the rest of the kit) through 15's for a small gig? Passable for very small gigs if you cheat a little. That's another reason I mentioned the Vegas. If you make the woofer pump a lot it has a harder time accurately reproducing the midrange speakers. With the cone mid,you get a little separation of frequencies there. BTW,in small venues,you probably wouldn't need anything except on the kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Singin' Dave Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 Thunder, You have a nicely powered amp there. As someone who uses them, powered mixers are most limited in a number of factors. First, the vast majority of powered mixers are underpowered. Only a few offer the kind of headroom your amp has (The only one I can think of off hand is that Yorky PowerMax), and they are very pricey. Most powered mixers have only 6-8 channels, not enough for anything more than a 2-3 piece outfit and certainly not enough for micing drums and bass Powered mixers have extremely limited inputs, sends, EQ, effects etc., not a scalable solution for fine-tuning your sound Powered mixers can be unreliable and when they do break down, your out an amp, mixer, EQ and effects...not good There only benefit is ease of use and size.....not really audiophile qualities. You are on the right path with getting a good mixer (look at Peavey RQ series used for a good budget mixer or buck up for a Mixwiz 16:2 or 3) As for mains, there are a ton of threads in this forum about the best passive and active speakers. Since you have a decent amp, I'd go passive as they are cheaper and again with separate components, more reliable/easy to swap out (though less easy) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted May 6, 2005 CMS Author Share Posted May 6, 2005 If you're serious about having your own PA rig, forget the powered mixers. The small lunchbox style are fine to use for rehearsals or if you're a solo/duo act driving a Civic from gig to gig. But for a typical rock band, you need monitors and subs, and you will find venues where you need and want to put the mixer out in the house, and a powered mixer is a liability at that point. It's nice to run a snake and a power cable and be done with the FOH. You really don't want to deal with the problems of having one amp fail in the mixer, and then not having either mixer or power while the thing's in the shop. Your ability to scale up is hampered by dealing with, "well now where can I use the mixer amps, and how do I route the signal and relabel the thing", etc. It always seems a lot easier at first to just buy one box with 2/3 of your rig. It always becomes a hassle later on. Consider investing in an Allen & Heath Mixwizard3 16:2. It's $1,000, but is a wonderful little console that will make your life easier. It rack mounts, has dual effects that don't sound like {censored}, 6 auxiliaries...enough for 4 monitor sends and two effects sends, really nice channel EQ with TWO sweepable mids, and 16 real channels, all XLR and 100mm faders. For speakers, I've been recommending JBL MPro 412's which you can use as wedges or FOH, and pair up really well with single 18" subs. A pair of these and the Mixwiz, with rack and cables would run about $2,300 or less if you strike a package deal. It's all readily available at GC, American Musical, etc. For alternatives, look at the Yorkville Elites at Audioeast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members coyote-1 Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 I've scaled-up. I originally had a cheapo Peavey 4ch powered mixer. When that could no longer cut the mustard I traded in and got a Yamaha EMX660 powered mixer. 300w/channel, and a decent reverb built-in along with EQ. When our input reqs grew, I added a used JBL Eon mixer. We eventually outgrew that, and I got a Yamaha MG32/14fx mixer. Our power needs also grew so I added a power amp. Now the powered mixer is used to power the floor monitors. And on smaller gigs we can still get by with the powered mixer and the Eon board. So it's a sorta modular system that allows me to mix & match to suit a particular gig. Therefore I heartily recommend getting a powered mixer if it suits your needs now! No reason it can't be a useful part of a larger rig as your needs grow in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezstep Posted May 6, 2005 Members Share Posted May 6, 2005 I have a Yamaha EMX5000-20, a 16-channel board with an extra couple of stereo channels. It is powered (500wts per side @ 4 ohms) and we use it powered if in a small-mid sized club. There is a separate line out for lows (adjustable 80 - 120 hz) to go into a sub power amp, if the club is large enough to warrant subs. If in a larger club, we set up power amps onstage and use the board unpowered. I would not consider running it powered when using a snake. IMHO, it is the best of both worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hamer Posted February 6, 2007 Members Share Posted February 6, 2007 WOW,you run speaker cables right next to the mic and line hookup stuff? And you run speaker wiring clear from the mixing area to the stage. Great if it works for you but for someone else asking,it is certainly not a recommended setup. I had allways thought the way you did,It seems the new way of doing things is this way though,powered mixer and running the power down the snake to the speakers,all thru the years of playing (25 years) we would never have done this,but yorkville even makes the snake with the speaker cables built in them,I did sound for a band a while back with this system and it was working great and good sounding,and took about 30 mins to set up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members egkor Posted February 6, 2007 Members Share Posted February 6, 2007 What gauge wiring is in there for speakers in those snakes that include speaker wiring? -Gary K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 6, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 I had allways thought the way you did,It seems the new way of doing things is this way though,powered mixer and running the power down the snake to the speakers,all thru the years of playing (25 years) we would never have done this,but yorkville even makes the snake with the speaker cables built in them,I did sound for a band a while back with this system and it was working great and good sounding,and took about 30 mins to set up Using a power snake (a snake with both balanced input and unbalanced large speaker conductors) is by no means a new way of doing things. They've been on the market for decades. There are potential problems...the speaker output signal can set up occilations in the input signal causing a feedback loop. There are also the usual line loss problems associated with 100 feet of speaker cable...you're taking an already relatively low amplifier out and running it through relatively smaller speaker wires (typically 14ga) for a relatively long run. Generally speaking, you're probably better off using separate speaker snake and mic/line input snake, so the cables can be run separately, larger diameter speaker cable can be run, and weight can be kept to a minimum. Power snakes in my epxerience are rather ungainly for what they provide. There's no reason a similar system using separate power amps at the stage can't be set up in the same timeframe. It's all about planning your rig for convenience and performance. I'm not in any way saying that a power snake/powered mixer shouldn't be used, but am stating some of the drawbacks to such a rig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 6, 2007 Members Share Posted February 6, 2007 Don't forget the third option: Mixer plus powered speakers If you want simple I can't imagine why anybody would do it differently than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted February 6, 2007 Members Share Posted February 6, 2007 What gauge wiring is in there for speakers in those snakes that include speaker wiring?-Gary K 14ga. Compromise beween maximum ga and flexibility and weight for the snake. It's the defacto standard. Most common layouts have two 14ga pair with each feeding 2 parallelled output jacks, 2 regular 22-24ga returns, and then whatever number inputs, most often 12 is stocked although 8 & 16 are available. Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 6, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 6, 2007 If you want simple I can't imagine why anybody would do it differently than this. Well, there is that issue of the extra power cables:rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 6, 2007 Members Share Posted February 6, 2007 Come on Craig ... I know even you know where they go;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members timmcallister Posted February 6, 2007 Members Share Posted February 6, 2007 When we played Saturday night, I (bass) didn't go through the PA and filled the place with bass without running my amp past about 10 o'clock. The drums were sufficiently loud and were not mic'd. A friend's band has this mixer: Yamaha MG16/6FX 16-Input 6 Bus Mixer with DSP and highly recommends it. Opinions? I have that mixer, and for THAT PRICE POINT, its great. I have that mixer and a PLXII 1804 in a custom built little case with the mixer on top and amp and patchbay below. Total thing weighs less than most powered mixers, and is all prewired (speakons, XLRs, ipod connections, etc) for quick setup . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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