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thinking about yamaha digital mixer


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HI I haven't posted in a long time, been very busy. Just purchased a whole new PA system except a mixer, still using a 32 channel mackie. Any one had any experiance with the digital mixers. are they worth the money and whats the learning curve. and would it be worth it to ad to my new system?

 

THe new system consists of, this may help

I don't have the parts numbers handy at this moment

 

-12 EV QRX tops

-12 EV QRX 2 18" subs

-8 EV Qrx monitors

-6 Crest CA 18 amps

-8 Crest CA 9 amps, got one hell of a deal!!!

-2 QSC 3402 amps

-2 Ashley EQ's

-4 DBX compressors

-2 Bherienger compressors

-3 tc electrics effects units

-2 Ashley crossovers

-MAckie 32 channel FOH

-mackie 32 channel Monitor

-almost all shure mics except for 4 Neuman mics for the vocalists

-thats the basics

 

I have used this system eight times and don't have one single complaint, wish I could afford JBL stuff. BUt this EV stuff works great even outdoors. lots of head room.

-

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I have done a crowd of 1,200 people. hopefully can do up to 5,000 because I have a show outdoors this summer that will require that, and I went and spent my whole inheritence. the 1,200 person show was insanely loud and I wasn't pushing anything. The sub just killed. I have a friend in town with 4 more subs and tops I can borrow if needed

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Digital mixers for live, hmm.....

 

Pluses:

 

Fully para EQ on every channel, along with gates and comps.

Built in EFX

Smaller and lighter, generally

Snapshot automation can be used to switch between multiple bands

 

Minuses:

 

Menus instead of knobs

Layered faders (depending)

Hosed if the board locks up requiring reboot

Questionable roadworthiness (depending on model)

Enough mike inputs?

 

That first minus is a big one.

 

Terry D.

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any specific modle you where looking at?

 

 

I see you have 2 32 channel mackies - are they for FOH and monitor?

 

I don't know why you want to be jumping on to the digital area for? What do you want to gain?

 

Have you considered a new analog board?

 

just wondering what your motivation is, that is all.

 

Kev.

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Originally posted by DDAY

I have done a crowd of 1,200 people. hopefully can do up to 5,000 because I have a show outdoors this summer that will require that, and I went and spent my whole inheritence. the 1,200 person show was insanely loud and I wasn't pushing anything. The sub just killed. I have a friend in town with 4 more subs and tops I can borrow if needed

 

5000 people outside may be wishful thinking if you need any real volume. You might want think this through a bit before hand.

 

You spent your whole inheritance on this? Hoope you have a good day job and employment prospects as the way to make a million dollars in the sound businessis to start with 2 million...

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Originally posted by DDAY

HI I haven't posted in a long time, been very busy. Just purchased a whole new PA system except a mixer, still using a 32 channel mackie. Any one had any experiance with the digital mixers. are they worth the money and whats the learning curve. and would it be worth it to ad to my new system?


THe new system consists of, this may help

I don't have the parts numbers handy at this moment


-12 EV QRX tops

-12 EV QRX 2 18" subs

-8 EV Qrx monitors

-6 Crest CA 18 amps

-8 Crest CA 9 amps, got one hell of a deal!!!

-2 QSC 3402 amps

-2 Ashley EQ's

-4 DBX compressors

-2 Bherienger compressors

-3 tc electrics effects units

-2 Ashley crossovers

-MAckie 32 channel FOH

-mackie 32 channel Monitor

-almost all shure mics except for 4 Neuman mics for the vocalists

-thats the basics


I have used this system eight times and don't have one single complaint, wish I could afford JBL stuff. BUt this EV stuff works great even outdoors. lots of head room.

-

 

 

the most important question here is how much cash you have to spend on this. also what kind of bands are playing and do they have any rider reqiurements?

 

i think your racks and stacks ought to do it for an enclosed kind of space. you really should be looking at a 15K$ minimun to match quality for a mixer with this system.

 

edit: sorry didnt realize the outdoors part, you might have some issues, but it shouldnt be too bad.

 

a digital mixer to run live sound for a real concert is going to run upwards of 60K. you really cant use the cheap little guys because you really need a large control surface to mix a large band.

 

how are you eqing monitors? i assume you are going to stick with the mackie? are the ashlys for monitors and you are planning to go higher for foh?

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okay answers to questions

 

I had seen the digital mixers and was just wondering about them

THe mackies are for both foh and monitors

I can get my hands on a midas venice used, Better choice?

I will continue to use the mackie for monitors

 

the outdoors situation, would the extra four subs and tops be enough or should I get a loan and get more and how many would you reccomend I need to add

 

 

I want to start small and learn before really digging in my paws and getting somthing really huge. I could bear to add 8 more subs and tops with amps, If I really needed to the show in the summer is making it worthwhile for me

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I cannot spend upwards of 60K thats for shure, so I guess the digital is out. and I do all kinds of local shows for blues, metal and some multiband shows.

 

MY monitor setup consists of DBX eq's 4 and 2 driveracks

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Originally posted by DDAY

I cannot spend upwards of 60K thats for shure, so I guess the digital is out. and I do all kinds of local shows for blues, metal and some multiband shows.


MY monitor setup consists of DBX eq's 4 and 2 driveracks

 

 

could you shell out 15K for a decent analog board? i really think you would do better with an upper level A&H GL than anything digital.

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Originally posted by DDAY

I cannot spend upwards of 60K thats for shure, so I guess the digital is out. and I do all kinds of local shows for blues, metal and some multiband shows.


MY monitor setup consists of DBX eq's 4 and 2 driveracks

 

If you are thinking of digital a yamaha 01V96 with a second adat card in the slot with 2 Behringer ADA8000 preamps will give you 32 analog preamps. This would be around $3000. Of course if you pick up the new M7CL at around $20,000 that would be great.:thu:

 

http://www.yamahaproaudio.com/products/mixers/m7cl/index.html

 

I don't know what your future plans are but digital desks seems to be the trend for the future. I am very glad I went with the 01V96 as it is a great sounding easy to use unit. I can store scenes for mulit band sound checks and for repeat bands and venues. The gates, compressors, delays, etc all are fine.

The 4 built in effects units are fine. With a little adjusting I have gotten some very good results.

 

With the Foh system you have seems a shame to have the foh desk perhaps not as good as it could be. ( Like now.....:( )

But to each his own.

 

Kindest Regards

Dookietwo

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i was not aware of that new yamaha unit, if its really only 20K that should be a hot seller.

 

I really dont think the 01V96 with behringer a/d is appropriate here. if your doing reinforcement for a crowd of 5000 you really should be using proffesional gear. you can't skimp on quality. youve spent a lot of coin on the rest of your system, buy a desk to match it.

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You are likely to find engineers that do not like working live on a console like that. Not very live-sound friendly unless you have absolute control of everything that happens around you. It can be a real disaster when the gid turns into a cluster-{censored} free for all.

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We use 12 EV QRx 212's over 8 EV MTL-1's, and 8 EV 115's for monitors, all biamped with QSC PLX and RMX 4050's on the subs. Ashley EQ's, DBX Driverack, DBX comps and gates, TC effects, mostly Shure mics. It's strange how similar our systems are.

 

In any case, we have a 40 channel A&H ML3000 out front, and it does pretty well. It's a pretty small console, but it's pretty good for what it is. For small shows we can do 4 mixes from FOH, still with 4 effects. The VCA's are a nice addition, as is the variable high-pass filter. For a small VCA console, I don't think you can do better for the money.

 

I wuldn't mind seeing an ML4000 or 5000, or something along those lines. I'd also rather see a GL2800 than a Venice, I've never been a fan of that console. Not that it's a bad board, you just don't get what you pay for, IMO. And VCA's are always a good thing, but if you're not going to have VCA's, you have to have at least 8 subgroups.

 

The opener for a show we did last weekend was using a Mackie TT24 for monitors, mostly ears. It seemed to work really well, and the monitor guy, who was also the rhythm guitarist, apparently, was really happy with it. The headliner had PM5D's on FOH and Mons, and that worked well too (obviously). But I think for $7k, that Mackie might be something to think about. Other than that, you might want to think about a mid-priced VCA console, and maybe something better than a Mackie 32 on monitors too.

 

FWIW, we do crowds of 2,000-ish fairly regularly with our system, and it does pretty well. You could do 5,000 with it, but it's not the best choice. The mids on our 212 QRx boxes don't throw all that far, and the horns seem to bite a little when you push them. I'm also not a fan of the angled horn lens, but it helps a lot in certain circumstances. On the positive side, the boxes are fairly lightweight, and they array and couple really well. The rigging is also very useable. The QRx subs sound great, and throw pretty well. I wish we had those instead of our MTL-1's, but whatever. I find that the biggest issue is the horn on the tops. If you've got it pointing down, you've got to make sure the tops are up high enough. If you need to change them, it's a pain in the ass. And you can't just aim them straight out. Kind of sucks sometimes.

 

In my opinion, if you want to go the digital route, and want to go small, the TT24 might be a decent choice. If not, get a solid VCA desk, and you should be fine. We've had some bigger acts on our ML3000, and there haven't been any complaints. Sure, it's not the best, you could always use more EQ and auxes, and there's a few other things that could be better, but it's a great board for the money. All the engineers that have been on it knew what to expect, and knew that they could get the job done with it. And at the end of the day, that's all that really matters.

 

BTW, I think a 40 channel ML3000 goes for right around $10k.

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I've done some poking about, and so far I'm not a convert to digital.

 

1. Interface. Sorry, it just doesn't cut it for live use. And so many units need extra cards and interfaces. Really takes away from the 'one box does all' aspect that's supposed to be part of the draw.

 

2. Total system failure. Can't comment for sure, but as someone in the software industry I fear anything live and mission-critical that depends on software.

 

3. I don't think the idea of all the on-board processing is as much of a plus as they'd like us to believe. Being 'stuck' with what it's got for the life of the unit isn't desirable, and the space-savings issue is a moot point for the type of rig you'd typcally see these consoles running. For the small operator it would be a boon, but the price will have to really come down to make it feasible here too.

 

Discuss....I'm far from fluent on this topic, so correct what I've got wrong here....

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Originally posted by Craigv

I've done some poking about, and so far I'm not a convert to digital.


1. Interface. Sorry, it just doesn't cut it for live use. And so many units need extra cards and interfaces. Really takes away from the 'one box does all' aspect that's supposed to be part of the draw.


2. Total system failure. Can't comment for sure, but as someone in the software industry I fear anything live and mission-critical that depends on software.


3. I don't think the idea of all the on-board processing is as much of a plus as they'd like us to believe. Being 'stuck' with what it's got for the life of the unit isn't desirable, and the space-savings issue is a moot point for the type of rig you'd typcally see these consoles running. For the small operator it would be a boon, but the price will have to really come down to make it feasible here too.


Discuss....I'm far from fluent on this topic, so correct what I've got wrong here....

 

I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

it comes down to risk benifit, and with most things in this industry, we really don't like any risk at all.

 

I still think what we really need to see is a set of out board perififerals. like a 31 band eq, with motorised faders and a set of knobs for the drive section. I liek the idea of centraliseing everything IF it means we can then control it all with a common set of interfaces ect. any then we can build redundancy.

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Originally posted by kevinnem


I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head.

it comes down to risk benifit, and with most things in this industry, we really don't like any risk at all.


I still think what we really need to see is a set of out board perififerals. like a 31 band eq, with motorised faders and a set of knobs for the drive section. I liek the idea of centraliseing everything IF it means we can then control it all with a common set of interfaces ect. any then we can build redundancy.

 

 

Indeed, if a standard, but expandable interface can be developed and agreed upon (pause for sarcastic laughter here), it would be much preferred over a digital box with periph's built in. It's no different in my mind than analog mixers with built-in EQ's or effects, except perhaps they aren't as mediocre in digital boards due to the price difference....you're stuck with what they provide and additional outboard gear upgrades ultimately degrade the concept of digital gear in the first place.

 

Today's digital boards are essentially the "combo amps" of the breed. Someone needs to come up with a separate 'head and cab' concept that works for most if not everyone.

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actually guys, i think the seperate components for digital mixers is not the most viable path, but fully configurable operating systems which will allow the user to write or upload there own or purchased effects algorithms/packages will be a better alternative.

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Originally posted by milesdf

but fully configurable operating systems which will allow the user to write or upload there own or purchased effects algorithms/packages will be a better alternative.

Leading to more and more incompatability conflicts and reduced reliability.

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Originally posted by milesdf

there would have to be a standard created, just as there are standards that exist now (but too many and too few used) for digital transfer. it would be better if a software standard was created.

The problem with software standards is thast they are so easy to violate. Look at the CD and DVD industry. No longer really viable due to the multiple non-standard formats. Working only 99% of the time is NOT acceptable to me for a mission critical piece.

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Thanks for all the input, I cannot afford a cluster {censored} at a show especially with the reputation I am trying to build. analog it is. HOW are crest boards there is one for sale 52 channels with VCA's in town for $8,000??. Also This morning I have orderd six more tops and four more subs and purchased three more crest amps two Ca9's and a Ca 18. THaks for all your help and I do hope digital is a viable option someday because I like things that light up.:D

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