How do learn to install a flown system?????

[Norton666]

As some of you may know, I run a music store and we do small scale club and church sound system installation. I am running into a lot of people in clubs that want their system flown to save floor space. I have been told you have to be certified to install these types of systems. Is this true? Where do I need to start as far as learning the proper way to do this , and how do I get certified? Any help or tips are greatly appreciated.

[kevinnem]

 

Originally posted by Norton666 As some of you may know, I run a music store and we do small scale club and church sound system installation. I am running into a lot of people in clubs that want their system flown to save floor space. I have been told you have to be certified to install these types of systems. Is this true? Where do I need to start as far as learning the proper way to do this , and how do I get certified? Any help or tips are greatly appreciated.

 

 

I am kinda in teh same boat. I want to fly stuff, and I want to do it right, .. it seems everyone is saying that you need to be "certified" even though no one seems to know where you need to do this, .. or what it gives you. "yes I am a certified rigger from bob's school of pizza bakeing and rigging."

 

Where do I get insurance from? per gig / per year?

[Scodiddly]

Cerification tends to be a local or trade-group sort of thing - definitely ask around your area.

 

One of the most useful things about being certified/licensed is that you end up saving on insurance - or being able to get insurance in the first place.

[laidback]

I'm a sound contractor in a rural area. I have the same problems as you.

I begin by determining what I need to fly and how I'll fly it. If there's specific hardware from the manufacturer or ATM I'll try to use that if it matches the requirements of the installation. I then get the specifics, including weight and what I plan to suspend it from to the architect for approval. I include a line in my bid submission that engineering sign-offs are the client's responsibility. If he's good with it, I'll fly using all fly-rated hardware (forged steel eyebolts, shackles, etc.) The hardware all has load ratings marked on the piece. I generally use a 10:1 wll on everything. All threaded fittings are threadlocked and I use safety wires on shackles.

It's very important to have the right equipment on hand--a hydraulic lift, and plenty of manpower. WLL's are for static loads, not shock loads.

I also include a line in my proposals that all flown systems need to be inspected annually. I'd sleep better if I were certified, but I can't find any certification that seems to mean anything in this context.

[agedhorse]

Generally, all structural drawings are FIRST certified by a professional structural engineer. The drawings will need to include loads, attachment point details, hardware specifications, safety factors and the PE will either determine that the design meets all current safety requirements (including seismic) or will take what you have and specify the required hardware to make things work. This process costs money and will result in an approved and signed stamped drawing with the PE's reg number.

 

Then this drawing will need to be submitted to the athority having jurisdiction for permit approval, then the installation can take place, then an inspection by the AHJ. At that point your insurance company may or may not want to inspect, but your inspection report will need to be retained as part of your job file, the general contractor and maybe the PE will take a copy as well.

 

Certification is generally a trade organization thing, but can also be part of a specialty contractor's license depending on your state.

 

I am an electrical engineer and have a good background in structural/mechanical so generally I will generate the design, calculate the force vectors and resultant loads then submit to the PE of record for the job as an addendum to the job for their approval and stamp. This costs me less because I have done all the work and they just do a plan check rather than a full design and I have to do the work anyway.

 

I use at least a 10:1 safety factor which makes the calculations simpler and thus less costly. If there's no additional materials cost for a higher safety factor, it can pay back in lower engineering costs as some factors drop out of the equations when SF's are so high that the resultant design becomes trivial.

[Norton666]

A lot of the stuff you guys are throwing out there, is going over my head. Let me first say, I have NEVER flown a system. I dont even know what to use to fly speakers. Cables, shackles, hardware? Where do I buy all of this stuff? I wouldve guessed that the speaker manufacturer would sell this stuff, but it doesnt seem that they do. I am going to be using EV equipment by the way. Are there any online resources for a newbie looking to learn how to do it?

[jasps]

You should go check out some "professional" installs, then. Go on a search of your area and see how the sound contractors did it. That should get you a start. You need to know about where you can go about attaching your rigging, too. Check out the place where you'll be doing the install. You can't just mount rigging hardware anywhere... You might need to get an engineer involved.

 

I'll also recommend using shoulder bolts instead of eyebolts, where appropriate. You can generally buy the stuff you need from a dedicated hardware store (one place in town only sells shackles, bolts, fasteners, etc.). You can buy chain, cable, etc., from a lot of places. You'll need a way to cut and crimp cable and a way to cut chain. You can buy a lot of rigging hardware from electrical establishments, too.

 

Hope this helps.

[agedhorse]

Newbies shouldn't be flying equipment.

 

Newbies need to gain experience by working for established professional companies that do this kind of stuff regularly.

 

Newbies ahould also have at least the basic education and experience in the field to determine the correct steps required and who to hire to do this correctly.

 

Newbies should also consider that everyone who walks under what's flown is in danger if a mistake or poor judgement is used in flying speakers or anything else for that matter.

 

Newbies should have insurance so that if something awful should happen, those who are injured have recource for seeking medical (or funeral:eek: ) cost reimbursement.

 

If you can't/won't obtain insurance that provides for rigging coverage then you shouldn't ever fly a speaker.

[Ear Abuser]

Here is some good background info

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n14.pdf

 

This explains some of the factors that need to be considered from the speakers up to the suspension point. Only a structural engineer can tell you if the suspension point is suitable for the load you want to suspend.

 

I am not implying that you can learn to do this from reading an article-you need to get training. This can kill people ,just like electricity

[where02190]

 

Newbies shouldn't be flying equipment.

 

 

Amen. If you haven't done it, this is not place to learn by doing. Hire a professional who is experienced in structural engineering. You are putting peoples lives at stake, as well as your reputation, and could be held liable to civil and criminal actions if someone should get hurt as a result of your work.

 

Mountain Productions has regular rigging school to teach and certify professional riggers. If you are serious about this as a career, I highly suggest you look into it.

[Ear Abuser]

Here's what happens when you don't know what you are doing with rigging:

http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/15554/0/0/0/

[Craig Vecchione]

The Mountain Productions CM Hoist School is only run once a year. It was in March. But it look like a good value...$800 for four days including lodging and meals.

[Scodiddly]

 

Originally posted by Ear Abuser Here's what happens when you don't know what you are doing with rigging: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/15554/0/0/0/

 

 

You beat me to it... I've learned a lot from those "what's wrong with this picture?" threads at Prosoundweb.

 

A good place to learn is, if possible, by working with the local stagehand's union. The union is usually where you find the good local riggers, and the good locals have a strong emphasis at safety. Just working as an "extra" on a big arena show you'd see a lot of chain motors, shackles, etc. in use.

[BillESC]

Having been a member of I.A.T.S.E. locals 365 and 642 and called into local 1 for major events, I can tell you the Stage Hands Union is a great place to learn the craft of rigging.

 

When you're on the steel crew at Giants Stadium building the stages for the Stones or Elton John and the stage reaches 12 stories into the air, you can't afford to make mistakes. It's nothing for one of these shows to require 40+ two ton motor points and an assortment of cable and curtain picks.

 

Mountain Productions rigging school is excellent and I recommend it to anyone who is serious about becoming a rigger.

 

We fly most of our larger installation jobs, a recently completed job used three FRI+ 152/64 EV speakers as a center cluster. We had a custom fly rig fabricated by our metal shop and the 254# rig was flown on two 4/0 chain points. As luck would have it, the structural steel of the building was in the exact location we needed. You can always trust a 14" I Beam

 

A ten to one safety factor is mandatory and all hardware must be rated for overhead loads.

[kevinnem]

Originally posted by BillESC ...... As luck would have it, the structural steel of the building was in the exact location we needed. You can always trust a 14" I Beam A ten to one safety factor is mandatory and all hardware must be rated for overhead loads.

 

Not ot get off topic, but did I ever tell you about the bridge I built(I was part of the engineering team) that fell over?

[Dogoth]

I would also recommend you contacting your local I.A.T.S.E. and asking them about rigging (I think most locals have a certification program). Although most of this class I believe is about rigging temporary setups, this would give you some good insight on permanent installation as well. You might contact your local I.B.E.W. and ask them as well.

 

I agree that you shouldn't EVER do a rigging job unless you know exactly what your doing. I for one don't want to do rigging as I really don't want the liability (an incorrect rigging job can be very dangerous).

[ATOMICDOG1]

Originally posted by Ear Abuser Here's what happens when you don't know what you are doing with rigging: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/15554/0/0/0/

 

 

Those poor Nexo's.... sniff...

[Norton666]

I totally understand that this is not something to take lightly and should not be a trial and error thing. Heres the problem: I am in Nebraska. I literally would have to drive 200 miles to see a flown system installation, let alone finding someone to do it. "Professionals" havent always been professionals, they had to start somewhere right?

I dont know what any of the abbreviations you guys are throwing out mean (I.A.T.S.E). I appreciate all of the help, but I am not willing to settle for a "just forget about it and hire a professional" attitude. I honestly want to know what steps I need to take to become , not necessarily a professional, but someone who is confident in doing this type of work.

[Norton666]

I guess I should also point out that I am looking at flying no more than 2 cabinets per side ( single 15"&horn).

[kevinnem]

 

Originally posted by Norton666 I totally understand that this is not something to take lightly and should not be a trial and error thing. Heres the problem: I am in Nebraska. I literally would have to drive 200 miles to see a flown system installation, let alone finding someone to do it. "Professionals" havent always been professionals, they had to start somewhere right? I dont know what any of the abbreviations you guys are throwing out mean (I.A.T.S.E). I appreciate all of the help, but I am not willing to settle for a "just forget about it and hire a professional" attitude. I honestly want to know what steps I need to take to become , not necessarily a professional, but someone who is confident in doing this type of work.

 

 

I hear you mate! The problem is that people are so used to people who are un quilified asking how to fly stuff, teh typicial reaction is the "you don't want to do this " responce.

 

Just to clear up any misunderstanding:

* You want to to learn how to do this safely and correctly. and you wondering where to start *

 

Well I know there are some books out there on rigging, maybe a big of reading is in order. Then your going to have to hook up with someone that does this already. work with them and learn fomr them for a bit. You will need to take all the info they give you with a grain of salt though, as it is YOUR ass on the line, not his, when it comes down to it.

 

To give you some prospective, I have flown stuff only a hand full of times in my life. My partner used to do it a lot, and his lack of concern for safety, and complete understanding of the system, is troubleing. I am a Geomatics engineer - 5 years of school, and 3 years of experiance - so far. next year I "might" be able to become a professionial engineer, we will see. so that is about 10 years +/-. and I am still not that confident when I fly stuff.

 

So in the end I guess your best bet is to hook up with an engineer that can over see your work , and take responciblity for it- or an experianced rigger (pick you poision carefully).

 

other ideas?

 

Kev.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Originally posted by Norton666 I totally understand that this is not something to take lightly and should not be a trial and error thing. Heres the problem: I am in Nebraska. I literally would have to drive 200 miles to see a flown system installation, let alone finding someone to do it. "Professionals" havent always been professionals, they had to start somewhere right? I dont know what any of the abbreviations you guys are throwing out mean (I.A.T.S.E). I appreciate all of the help, but I am not willing to settle for a "just forget about it and hire a professional" attitude. I honestly want to know what steps I need to take to become , not necessarily a professional, but someone who is confident in doing this type of work.

 

 

IATSE = International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees

 

Indeed, professionals got their start somewhere..and as others point out, the best way to start out is to work for/with professionals. In fact I'd venture it's the *only* way to learn this craft. There's no comprehensive training program for this...you get a job and work under someone's wing until they deem you competent. You're going to encounter some job protectionism here....just as it's nearly impossible to break into the crane operator's union if you're not a family member, I'll bet it's really hard to get a job in this line of work without a connection.

 

What you're asking is analogous to stating that you don't wish to become a professional pilot, but someone confident in flying a plane because you'll be making a few long trips in the future. You have to decide whether it is more time and cost effective to take flying lessons and get your pilot certificate, or to hire a charter or commercial flight. Just as there's no "in-between" solution there, you've got no in-between solution here.

[BillESC]

Norton,

 

I.A.T.S.E. = International Alliance of Theatrical Stage Employees. It is the professional stagehands union.

 

Rigging and Flying has to be approached on a case by case basis and takes time to learn and understand, that's why its been suggested that you understudy someone to learn the craft.

 

Feel free to call me regarding specific installation questions but be sure to have all of your information at hand, i.e., ceiling height, trim height, detailed ceiling construction, speaker brand and model.

[ctardi]

Originally posted by BillESC You can always trust a 14" I Beam

 

You know, I would normally agree, but we have a 12" running through our work. Stupid engineer should have gone bigger, max load on it is 250lbs at any one point...

[ctardi]

Originally posted by Ear Abuser Here's what happens when you don't know what you are doing with rigging: http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/15554/0/0/0/

 

I would have to say that looks like an ID-10-T error...

[Never_Grew_Up]

For materials, go here:

 

http://allenproducts.com/index.html

 

And here:

 

http://www.atmflyware.com/flyhome.html

 

According to their websites they both offer design & enginering services, as well as maintaining lists of contractors.

 

Sapsis offers seminars:

 

http://www.sapsis-rigging.com/seminars.html

 

I would suggect for the 1st few installs that you sub to one of the contractors listed on the websites above & pass the cost on to your customer, maybe with a markup, maybe just at cost. The companies that specialize in this have all the tools, training, & insurance. For many of them it's all they do, so you don't have to worry about them stealing your customer & trying to sell them extra stuff. We recently had Barbizon come in to do a lighting install that included 2 chainhoists & 20' of truss that hangs over the audience. They brought in a dedicated rigging company & didn't even try to hide it in the quote. They wanted to make sure we knew who was liable in the event of a failure.