Members Dogoth Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Got a project to make some Fan snakes/harnesses. I'm gonna use the Whirlwind IJ (individualy jacketed) series multi pair cable (I love this stuff as each pair has it's own jacket with the channel number already printed on it). The only shrink needed is the big diameter piece at the base of the fan. XLR Questions. I'm OK with switchcraft A3M and A3F connectors (although the strain relief is sort of funky) but I've used Neutrik XLRs in the past that I just loved (the kind with the flat spot on the side of the shell for labeling). I went to Neutrik's web site and couldn't find those exact connectors. Does anyone have a part number for those connectors? Did they discontinue them? As for what's avalable today what would you recommend and why? More info: These Fans will be used from a patch panel to a board's mic inputs and from the boards outputs (monitor board) to amps, Ie transmitters etc.... I'm making 1ea 32ch, 1ea 16ch and 2ea 8ch (I'm going to use the "finger puzzle" strain reliefs on the two bigger pieces). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Why not just buy somethinglike this pre-made from Mark? It's probably cheaper than rolling our own? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by agedhorse Why not just buy somethinglike this pre-made from Mark? It's probably cheaper than rolling our own? Build it yourself and you know the quality of the build. We do all our cabling inhouse. Zero failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted July 17, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by agedhorse Why not just buy somethinglike this pre-made from Mark? It's probably cheaper than rolling our own? I've bought stuff from Mark and Yes I'd have absolute confidence in the product (as I do in my own work as well). I originaly asked my boss If we could purchase these pre-made. His reply was that we can budget for it as maintainence much easier than new purchase. I'm guaranteed 40 hrs per week so hey I might as well(it really is maintainence as I'm replacing/upgrading some cabeling made in (my guess) the 60s). I really like those Neutrik XLRs. Did Neutrik discontinue a great product or is there something better that I don't know about (I haven't used the products I saw in their online catalog)? I'm sure it was just a couple of years ago (working for a different company) that we bought a ton of them (I can inquire localy but thought you guys may know about some superior product). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members padudeohio Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 Build it yourself and you know the quality of the build. We do all our cabling inhouse. Zero failures. You can only be gauranteed good build quality IF you are a good builder. This isn't a slam on the OP, but...if you ain't got the chops, don't try it. I'll also vouch for Mark's cables.....I use them on a daily basis and have zero failures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members milesdf Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 I'm not gonna reccomend cables (although they are fantastic) but connectors from mark. the GDP ones are sick, ive soldered a bunch of them and there just as good as anything neutrik makes. http://www.audiopile.net/products/Adaptors_Connectors/XLR_Cord_Ends/ES3MB-GDP/ES3MB-GDP_MXLR_Cutsheet.htm http://www.audiopile.net/products/Adaptors_Connectors/XLR_Cord_Ends/ES3FB-GDP/ES3FB-GDP_FXLR_Cutsheet.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 Build it yourself and you know the quality of the build. We do all our cabling inhouse. Zero failures. If you buy from quality vendors you also know the quality of build. We do a mixture of both in-house fab and subcontracted assembly depending on our workload and the complexity of the cable. We also do not stock all the tooling for the various multi-connnectors on the market, so often (though not always) it's cheaper to outsource to a company that stocks the tooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted July 17, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by padudeohio You can only be gauranteed good build quality IF you are a good builder. This isn't a slam on the OP, but...if you ain't got the chops, don't try it.I'll also vouch for Mark's cables.....I use them on a daily basis and have zero failures. Oh no problem there. I've been building custom cables for years (even wired a number of custom TT patchbays. Also with Zero Defects. I've wired several Recording Studios and convention sound systems (100V line stuff) and Installed the complete in house split system for a pretty good sized theatre (I figured that there were around 3.5k connections (40% soldered and 60% Spade lug) with one wrong pair and one fliped pair only. that was around 7 years ago and not a single maintainence problem since (I do very nice work)). The way I can achieve great results though is to be very picky about the quality of the wire , connectors and strain reliefs, fasteners etc... I also used to build and install custom video security systems (back in the old days with giant wads of coax and manual switchers). My experiance with wiring and installation goes way back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members padudeohio Posted July 17, 2006 Members Share Posted July 17, 2006 Well, if you have the time and the chops, then go for it. I second the nomination for Mark's connectors in that case. I build most of my own custom assemblies, but the standard stuff I buy from Mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 17, 2006 Share Posted July 17, 2006 Originally posted by JRBLE I've used Neutrik XLRs in the past that I just loved (the kind with the flat spot on the side of the shell for labeling). I went to Neutrik's web site and couldn't find those exact connectors. Does anyone have a part number for those connectors? Available through Whirlwind dealers: http://www.whirlwindusa.com/audadp01.html Part Numbers: WI3F inline female XLR WI3M inline male XLR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members B. Adams Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 I don't have any specific connector recommendations, although I do really like Whirlwind's pre-numbered connectors. They're a little pricey though, which is why I don't use them. But I noticed that you said that the only piece of shrink you'd need would be for the point of the breakout. Obviously you can do that, but in my experience, if the fan is going to be taking any sort of abuse at all, it's best to shrink each individual pair from the break to the connector as well as putting the big shrink on the seam. The insulation around the multipair isn't all that durable, but adding a layer of shrink around it makes a huge difference. It also looks better, in my opinion. Then 2 or 3 layers of shrink over the seam, and you're good to go. That's the standard way that Whirlwind does things, and it works very well. Horizon does it as an option, and we have some that are either way. The ones that have individual shrink on them last far longer than the ones without. It doesn't make too much difference for that, because when they break we just send them back and they fix them, but if I were doing it myself, I'd want it done right. There's no way to send homemade cables back. And Mark will tell you this himself as well, but I'll point out that his cables are "Medium Duty". They're not quite as tough as something by Whirlwind, for example. I'm not saying that to bash Mark's stuff, we have plenty of his cables that have been working perfectly for a long time, and we've never had a failure, but they are a little softer, and won't take really hard abuse as well as something built heavier. But don't get me wrong, they're perfect for at least 99.9% of users, just not the .1% that need to beat their stuff up. Oh, and as for the Neutrik connectors with the flat side, you're probably thinking of these . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 Damn that Avatar! I'm reading your post and in my head it's being read in Stewie's voice... I keep saying to myself : it's not really Stewie and the guy's voice doesn't really sound like that you moron. Then I realize that I'm talking to myself in my head and think WTF. I think I'll stop writing now.....I think I'll watch one of my Family guy DVDs instead. Sorry for my off topic post. Long live Family Guy... Al Poulin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SilleeSpyder Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by Al Poulin Damn that Avatar! I'm reading your post and in my head it's being read in Stewie's voice... I keep saying to myself : it's not really Stewie and the guy's voice doesn't really sound like that you moron. Then I realize that I'm talking to myself in my head and think WTF. I think I'll stop writing now.....I think I'll watch one of my Family guy DVDs instead. Sorry for my off topic post. Long live Family Guy... Al Poulin Yeah, I totally get the same thing when I read his posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members milesdf Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by B. Adams I don't have any specific connector recommendations, although I do really like Whirlwind's pre-numbered connectors. They're a little pricey though, which is why I don't use them. But I noticed that you said that the only piece of shrink you'd need would be for the point of the breakout. Obviously you can do that, but in my experience, if the fan is going to be taking any sort of abuse at all, it's best to shrink each individual pair from the break to the connector as well as putting the big shrink on the seam. The insulation around the multipair isn't all that durable, but adding a layer of shrink around it makes a huge difference. It also looks better, in my opinion. Then 2 or 3 layers of shrink over the seam, and you're good to go. That's the standard way that Whirlwind does things, and it works very well. Horizon does it as an option, and we have some that are either way. The ones that have individual shrink on them last far longer than the ones without. It doesn't make too much difference for that, because when they break we just send them back and they fix them, but if I were doing it myself, I'd want it done right. There's no way to send homemade cables back. And Mark will tell you this himself as well, but I'll point out that his cables are "Medium Duty". They're not quite as tough as something by Whirlwind, for example. I'm not saying that to bash Mark's stuff, we have plenty of his cables that have been working perfectly for a long time, and we've never had a failure, but they are a little softer, and won't take really hard abuse as well as something built heavier. But don't get me wrong, they're perfect for at least 99.9% of users, just not the .1% that need to beat their stuff up. Oh, and as for the Neutrik connectors with the flat side, you're probably thinking of these . eh i wouldnt call the connectors i get from him medium grade. well if anything as medium as the neutrik equivalent. i guess the canon ones could definitley be considered beefier, but those are so expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by padudeohio You can only be gauranteed good build quality IF you are a good builder. This isn't a slam on the OP, but...if you ain't got the chops, don't try it. Agreed, this is indeed very true. Sadly most manufacturers use the cheapest labor they can find, and they could care less about quality, as it's cheaper to simply replace a bad build that to spend the time to build it right, or more correctly to hire people who care about building it right and educating them. AFA cost, if you buy bulk it's pretty tough to beat DIY costs, but for a few cables it can be worth it, even counting the time to correct poor builds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 The better vendors use pretty well trained labor... the costs of defects is just too high not to. If you buy the bottom of the barrel stuff, you do get what you pay for though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 Sadly most manufacturers use the cheapest labor they can find, and they could care less about quality, as it's cheaper to simply replace a bad build that to spend the time to build it right, or more correctly to hire people who care about building it right and educating them. Please name those manufactures comprising "most" and identify your sources of information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 Cable assembly for any of these companies is a minimum wage, no skills required, otj training gig. Many job this out of the country where labor is slave wages. This is readily available info, check the country of manufacture listed on the part (required in the USA) or call and ask about applying for a job as an assembler. It's my experience that in the long run it is both cheaper and better quality to build it yourself. All the sound companies I have worked for take the same view. As previously stated, if you only need a few cables, then it's not cost effective, but if you are making a decent quantity, buy bulk, build yourself, build exactly what you need solidly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 Cable assembly for any of these companies is a minimum wage, no skills required, otj training gig. Many job this out of the country where labor is slave wages. This is readily available info, check the country of manufacture listed on the part (required in the USA) or call and ask about applying for a job as an assembler. It's my experience that in the long run it is both cheaper and better quality to build it yourself. All the sound companies I have worked for take the same view. This is inaccurate information (once again) Before spouting incorrect verbal diarrhea, you should consider suppliers such as Rapco, Horizon, Whirlwind etc. They are American companies, building the majority of their products with American materials and labor. Unless you buy the bottom of the barrel $5.00 mic cables, you will find that their professional lines are all U.S. made. I know this for fact since I had to file a certification of orgin on a govenrnment job using thier products. As far as your comments about minimum wage/no skill/slave labor, you REALLY need to get a bit more worldly. What may be minimum wage slave labor in NYC does not represent the rest of the country or world. When I traveled to Asia, I toured several assembly facilities, including a cable assembly plant. The folks there were skilled assemblers receiving a good wage and doing quality work every bit as good as you or I. Maybe even better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Anonymous Posted July 18, 2006 Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 Cable assembly for any of these companies is a minimum wage, no skills required, otj training gig. Although your broad sweeping statements concerning minimum wages, minimum skill level of the assemblers, and lack of commitment to quality may apply to some cable manufactures, it certainly doesn't apply to all. Please feel free to visit my operation and interview any of my employees. Originally posted by where02190 Many job this out of the country where labor is slave wages. This is readily available info, check the country of manufacture listed on the part (required in the USA) or call and ask about applying for a job as an assembler. Some of the cables I market are assembled here in the US, and some are assembled in S. Korea. Concerning your assertion of slave wages, admittedly some of us (mainly the management here) may grumble occasionally about being over worked and underpaid. You (or anyone else) can call and ask about applying for a job as an assembler here; however, since we have extremely low employee turn-over, job openings here are infrequent. Although I will agree that while some cable manufactures may employ some of the practices you allege, I don't believe your assessment is unique or particularly any more prevalent to the audio cable manufacturing industry than most any other facet of the general audio and music products manufacturing industries. Do you also assemble your own amps, mixing consoles, processing equipment, microphones, speakers, etc... to assure performance, reliability, and maintain your own standards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted July 18, 2006 Author Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 Thanks to everyone! Yes the whirlwind XLRs are the one (Gee maby while I was looking up the cable and hanger grip part numbers I should have looked at connectors as well (they were right under my mouses nose)). I've sent ACAD specs to whirlwind to have them build custom TT patchbays for me and the build quality was excellent (while wiring the theatre I mentioned earlier I had a time window and no way had time to solder patchbays (very time consuming)). Agreed cheap companies can be poor build quality where as good companies such as (as Aged Horse mentioned) Whirlwind, Rapco and I suspect Audiopyle can be very good (you get what you pay for). Thanks again everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 suppliers such as Rapco, Horizon, Whirlwind etc. They are American companies, building the majority of their products with American materials and labor. They all use out of country labor to do cable builds, and the cables are clearly marked as required by federal law. I toured several assembly facilities, including a cable assembly plant. The folks there were skilled assemblers receiving a good wage and doing quality work Did you also tour their homes, see what educational opportunities were available to them, and what quality of life they had? I didn't think so. No this practice is not unique to the cable industry, and no i don't build my own electronics, however since that process is highly automated, the quality is much more consistant, and thus a moot point to this discussion IMHO. What's your starting pay for a cable assembler on the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 They all use out of country labor to do cable builds, and the cables are clearly marked as required by federal law. I just received a large quantity of cables clearly marked on the jacket as made in the U.S.A. I have also recently received orders of 8412 mic cable with Neutrik connectors that was built here using domestic Belden cable and admittedly Austrian connectors. Did you also tour their homes, see what educational opportunities were available to them, and what quality of life they had? Actually, I have seen their apartments (there are not many single family houses in the cities of Taiwan or Korea) and they are just like apartments here. As far as their education opportunities, they are probably better than they are here. Generally, they learn at least 2 languages, have a solid background in science and math, many of the folks I deal with have university degrees in engineering and there is nothing third world about them or their lifestyles. AND THEIR CELL PHONES ACTUALLY WORK ALMOST EVERYWHERE. I didn't think so. See above response... What's your starting pay for a cable assembler on the line? My shop guys start at $10/hr... and they have a tremendous learning opportunity since we do so many different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 I sure wouldn't want to try to live on $10/hr in California. Pay people a decent wage and there would be more single family homes in places like Korea and Taiwan, but without decent wages they cannot afford to own property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted July 18, 2006 Members Share Posted July 18, 2006 Originally posted by where02190 I sure wouldn't want to try to live on $10/hr in California.Pay people a decent wage and there would be more single family homes in places like Korea and Taiwan, but without decent wages they cannot afford to own property. That's a starting wage for basic labor, and reflects the lack of advanced education, experience and training. You are right though, that $10/HR is tough to live on... that's why education is so important, and those better educated and skilled make more money... that's how things work. If you understood world history and geography better, you would understand that land resources are too scarce in those countries to allow that large of a population to live spread out like that. It's not a money thing, and the apartments I saw were pretty darned fine. Why do people live in apartments in NYC? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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