Sharing/ owning a PA Sysytem in a band

[deester]

Hi

 

If you were in a band with me and I bought the PA System for us to play out, would you think it was reasonable that I asked for 10% of the gig money to help recover my cost.

 

 

I am in this situation currently, and things have been fine, until the other night after a great gig one the guys gets pissed about me always getting more & it made me wonder if he has a point because when all is said and done I will have something and they will have nothing.

 

My reasoning is yes, they helped me pay for it, but if I wouldn't have been the one to go into debt in the first place we would not be a working gigging band now. Gigs we would play would need a PA Rental and so I'm basically providing a much better system for us than we would otherwise be using - and for less cash. I realize this has put a burden on our friendships that I get more, and I don't like that it does. I try to put myself in their position however, and I think if the tables were turned I wouldnt mind throwing in the extra couple bucks to whoever owns the PA.

 

I know its easy for folks who have a full time job to just pick one up, but my life is music so $3500 is a huge burden.

The original deal was for me to get it and have the band pay a little bit at a time into the PA Fund until they helped me pay for 1/4 of the cost. Its taken us almost a year with weekly gigs to cover that amount and we still have a bit to go.

 

I can see the guys point who is a bit pissed because its taken me a while to buy everything that is needed. I started with the board and mains and minimal cables/ cords. Since then I've been able to aquire the rest including extra cables/ cords, stands, monitors and another little mini board to record us - so he may be looking at it like I just keep buying {censored} and not realize that it was the original plan to do this but that I had to wait to get a little at a time. Despite all I've read about people saying "dont buy a shared band PA" I almost wish we would've because it sucks to have to charge your friends extra to use the PA and I'm sure they would feel more fair if they each had a stake.

 

I thought that our original plan was win-win because we now get to play the gigs we were trying to get back before we had the PA, and I will have a PA with a downpayment 1/4 of the way

payed off. I want to be fair, but I don't want to get {censored} on. So what are your opinions about what we've done so far? Am I being an asshole? What should we do to fix it?

 

thanks

The Deester:D

[death metal jim]

My band hit me with the same thing . I own all the p.a. I supply the practice pad, I handle all the booking.ect .they got mad and said they didn't feel that they should help me set up the p.a. if I'm getting paid for sound . Sounds fare . So I told them if they want we can get some one else to do sound . And when we have played in other bands p.a. Our band makes a lot less money and it usually sounds like poop..If my band ever did a gig where we are the only band I would not charge but when I have to play and have my free beer buzz killed by some bands that I think suck. I need paid.. One thing you could do is run sound for other bands when your band has the nite off.

at.first i did it for free then i told other bands that we where gigging with that if they did not have at least one person from there band to help unload/load p.a. that i was charging them$20

then i started replacing gear and that's when i began charging for sound.

[ned911]

I am the one who in your shoes in my band but I don't take extra pay, the rest of the band helps setup the pa.

 

More crap is caused by money than it's worth. They are right that in the end you will own something, also if someone has been paying into a fund and they leave the band are you going to repay them or let them take some of the gear?

 

Just split the money equally and the headaches will be avoided.

[Marko]

I

[JohnnyGraphic]

Yes, charge them some money for it. It is only fair that you do. How much are you paying in interest for the gear (I'm assuming it was put on a credit card). You probably are the one who is mixing the sound too right? Yes, they may help schlepp the gear, but, do they really know what to do with all of those knobs? Since I own the gear, I say how and when it is used.

 

You are earning money by being in a band. The band isn't just a bunch of guys on stage playing and singing. You need a PA. If your duties are more involved than the others, you should be compensated for it. For example, if you printed 1000 flyers for the band's next big gig, do you think that the other members shouldn't help pay for the cost? They better. They all benefit from the flyers.

 

My suggestion is before you all do your next practice, get it all out into the open and talk about it calmly. Let them know that you are open to suggestions on how to handle it. Perhaps one of the others wants to buy their own PA and do the sound?!?!?!

 

Be flexible. But, make sure they understand that you have put a significant amount of money into the band and expect to see something for it.

 

Johnny

[6Imzadi]

I am in the position of owning the PA systemas a non playing non-member, and I get paid a flat rate of $140.00. The stage manager also gets that much. So, basically, I get paid for mixing, but nothing for the PA that my wife and I own to the tune of around $10,000 all together. The band owns the trailer. They do no setup, walk up to the stage for a line check, then kicks off the night then leaves. Stage manager and I set-up and tear down by ourselves.

We get a bonus on occasion, but it is usually $20-$30 extra. The band makes more than us every time. I have brought up the fact that I have to maintain the equipment,, but they get mad and go on about how they have maintenance on their gear too, and that I didn't pay into the trailer.

 

I'm feel like I'm getting screwed, but they make the most of any band in the area. I'm sure I would get a cut in pay if I joined a different band.

 

We are now looking for other bands, corporate gigs to fill in the off nights for $275-$325 per night.

[J.]

You deserve an extra cut if you own all the PA gear your band uses. It's that simple.

 

Once everyone's ego is involved however, "simple" flies right out the window. Some guys will never "get" the fact that the person who's got several thousand dollars or more worth of PA gear should get some compensation.

 

You were right to go against collective ownership. I entered into that once and got burned. Never again.

 

Overall, if I owned a full PA system that my band used I'd want a extra cut. If the other guys helped with load in, set-up, and load-out I probably wouldn't expect a huge extra amount.

[gadgetx23]

I was in that situation, and I still for the life of me can't understand how anyone has the nerve to complain about paying a small fee to the PA owner...

 

SELL your PA to a friend, and let the band RENT it from your friend for your gigs... you'll handle the cash transaction of course!

 

Sorry, I thought of all kinds of stupid ideas at that time - it really irked me.

 

Nevertheless, I gave up my battle. The small amount of extra cash wasn't worth the friction in the band. I own what I own, and we're buying upgrades collectively with the extra band money now.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by deester Hi If you were in a band with me and I bought the PA System for us to play out, would you think it was reasonable that I asked for 10% of the gig money to help recover my cost.

 

10% would be reasonable if 10% actually covers your costs. I doubt if it does. I suspect that somewhere between 50% and 150% would probably cover your actual costs.

 

 

Originally posted by deester Hi I am in this situation currently, and things have been fine, until the other night after a great gig one the guys gets pissed about me always getting more

 

I'd say: "Fine... you guys round-up the PA next time. If it's as good or better than what I was supplying, then I'll be happy to pay my share of the 10% (that's like 2%, right?). 10% of like $250 is $25 bucks, right? and your share would be like $5 - $6, right? I don't know about you, but I'd gladly pay $5 or $6 to be a star, not worry about a PA, and just sit back and bitch about whatever was supplied.

 

 

Originally posted by deester Hi it made me wonder if he has a point because when all is said and done I will have something and they will have nothing.

 

What you'll have when it's all said and done is a beat pile of crap that's maybe worth 10% of what you origionally paid for it... and you'll have the personal satisfaction of storing it, insuring it, paying personal property tax on it, listening to your wife bitch cause it's taking up the whole garage, moving it, maintaining it, and making damn sure it works reliably.

 

 

Originally posted by deester My reasoning is yes, they helped me pay for it,

 

No, they're using it and you, and they're probably paying peanuts for the ride.

 

 

Originally posted by deester I realize this has put a burden on our friendships that I get more, and I don't like that it does.

 

Friends make lousy business partners... you're probably starting to figure that out.

 

 

Originally posted by deester I know its easy for folks who have a full time job to just pick one up,

 

EXACTLY HOW IS THAT???

 

Admittedly, it's possible for someone with a JOB and INCOME to come up with money to buy stuff... but "easier"???

 

 

Originally posted by deester Hi I can see the guys point who is a bit pissed because its taken me a while to buy everything that is needed.

 

Fine... admit your short comings, step aside, and let him have his turn.

 

 

Originally posted by deester Despite all I've read about people saying "dont buy a shared band PA" I almost wish we would've because it sucks to have to charge your friends extra to use the PA and I'm sure they would feel more fair if they each had a stake.

 

Well... if friendship is first... just get rid of the PA... and the commune can hold a PA meeting and decide what to do. Table the motion to a committee. Vote on the recommendation at the next meeting.

 

 

Originally posted by deester I thought that our original plan was win-win

 

It's win-win for everybody without a monkey on their back. The only problem with a commune... is that many (most) people are inherinently lazy and greedy. I know I am.

 

 

Originally posted by deester I want to be fair, but I don't want to get {censored} on.

 

Fair would be to charge the band somewhere in the ballpark of what contractors in the local market would charge for a similar service.

 

 

Originally posted by deester So what are your opinions about what we've done so far? Am I being an asshole? What should we do to fix it?

 

Sugar daddys tend to have a lot of friends.

 

Do you even know what your costs are? If so, then FAIR is that the band share the COSTS equally.

[lifeloverwg]

I'd say your bandmate is being a twit.

 

Before your next practice make some phone calls and get some quotes on what it will cost to rent something comperable instead of using your equiptment. Then bring it up for discussion and get things clear and everybody on board with how your are going to procede before feelings get hurt or somebody says something stupid. You don't say how you paid or are paying for this PA, but either way 10% of the take sounds like you're giving it away if your pay is like most bar bands. Around my parts you'd have to pay $150 to rent even a decent SOS system.

 

If it really is an issue for your bandmate/s then it seems like you have a few choices.

One is to get {censored} on by the group and not be fairly compensated for your contribution, which doesn't make much sense to me, but it's your choice.

Two is to get a new bandmate/s.

Three is to sell the PA while you can still get 50% of what you paid for it and make them rent instead.

 

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and your band mates can come to appreciate what a sweet heart deal they have right now.

 

Good Luck

[Rbts]

Oh Man, this is so sad.

 

Obviously you should immediately go on strike.... but you can't even do that now, because they have been marginally "paying in" to this thing, so now they will feel like you owe them, even though they don't want to continue with the arrangement.

 

No, really, tell the guy that you agree completely, and his friendship means more to you than any small amount of money, nad just tell him to go ahead and take care of things from now on, you will be there for the sound check.

 

Or, look again, at what that added %10 is that you are getting and ask yourself if it is even worth talking about... I mean like everyone else has said, you "ought" to be getting more than that anyhow, but since all you actually are getting is %10 additional, maybe you really could "let it go", and just spilt the money equally... amongst the band, it might help the band last a little longer, and then in you next band... get amore clear about athe details earlier on, and if they don't want to treat you fairly for your investment, let them worry about getting their own PA.

[flip333]

Deester,

 

I think Audiopile's essay reflects my view 100%.

 

But that is my view. I will not run sound for free because it just burns my ass every second. I know a couple of bands around here where a "sugar daddy" provides the PA and is expected to provide the PA for zero compensation.

 

That is a personal choice.

 

Here is what you should consider doing:

 

 

 

 

 

ready?

 

 

 

 

Make a firm decision. ONE way or the OTHER.

 

Then stick to it. >>> Hell or high water.

 

Be a sugar daddy or don't be a sugar daddy.

 

You will be a much happier person in all your endeavors.

 

 

(best wishes really)

[wallypip]

I'm in a similar situation, but what I have done is divide the labor/costs up. My guitar player brings a guy who acts as a roadie and my drummer's wife always works the door or handles getting the money, etc.

 

In the end, my PA costs more than their contribution, but I frankly make the most money on my day job by a lot. So as long as they are contributing (and not complaining) I feel OK with the expense.

[guitarharv52]

I no longer do this full time but when I did it worked better for me to own the PA,book the band, which means you also determine who is in the lineup should problems occur.It is not a power thing but it seems to work better with one person doing the business end.Agents and club owners seem to prefer doing business with the person who can commit to the deal.A community ownership situation helped me arrive at this.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by deester wonder if he has a point because when all is said and done I will have something and they will have nothing. $3500 is a huge burden. The original deal was for me to get it and have the band pay a little bit at a time into the PA Fund until they helped me pay for 1/4 of the cost. Its taken us almost a year with weekly gigs to cover that amount and we still have a bit to go. Despite all I've read about people saying "dont buy a shared band PA" I almost wish we would've because it sucks to have to charge your friends extra to use the PA and I'm sure they would feel more fair if they each had a stake.

 

So, you have a loan on this rig for $3,500? And now, after 1 year it's almost 1/4 of the way paid off (just 3 years to go)?

 

I would immediately offer to sell it to the band... you even offer to buy your share... and assign ownership of the various components (draw numbers out of a hat if you want). Everybody is responsible for their portion. Then you can split the money evenly, cause everybody will have even costs and even responsibilities. If the band ever breaks up... everybody keeps their portion of the system.

 

Why? 'Cause: Right now, let's say you owe $2,750 on the system. If you sold the system, what would it fetch? I'm guessing maybe $1,750. So if the band disintegrated over-night (which it easily could if this issue isn't immediately resolved) and you're left holding the bag... and you've gotta liquidate the system... you might be stuck pulling $1K out of your pocket to retire the loan and own nothing. If you buy your 1/4 of the system right now, that will only cost about $700... and you'll own 1/4 of the system in a solvent band.

 

Admittedly, you'll be walking away from your "equity".

 

Humm...

 

$700 or so to own 1/4 of the system in a solvent band, or:

 

$1,000 to own nothing with a defunct band.

 

Humm...

[Guest Anonymous]

Originally posted by flip333 Make a firm decision. ONE way or the OTHER. Then stick to it. >>> Hell or high water. Be a sugar daddy or don't be a sugar daddy. You will be a much happier person in all your endeavors. (best wishes really)

Yup... at the next practice, I'd call for a band meeting. Explain that you've thought this over, and XYZ person has a point... being that you getting paid an extra 10% for the PA isn't fair. So... you've decided (since it's still your ball at this point):

 

1) Sell the band the existing PA, you'll even pay for your share, or:

 

2) Sell the PA, and the band can either rent or buy whatever PA they want, or:

 

3) Sell the PA, and the band just book gigs in venues with house systems.

 

And... you're open to suggestions, but you realize the error in your ways and you will no-longer be the sole owner of the PA.

 

If the decision is to liquidate the PA, offer that the money be split evenly between the band, since everyone has a vested interest in the PA... meaning that whatever the sale price, the loan gets paid off, and everyone shares in whatever is left (which I'm guessing each member will need to pull about $400 out of their pocket to pay for the real depreciation). And just so this is really fair, offer XYZ person (the guy that pitched the bitch)... that he can have the opportunity to sell the PA... or own it all himself. Insist that this needs to be a done deal before the next payment is due (cause you're not making another payment).

 

Humm... the only hitch in the gittey-up I see is when the PA is sold, and there's still like $1,200 left owing on it... getting each member to cough up the additional $300 - $400 they owe for the real depreciation at this point. If that's the case, then selling it to the band is gonna be the best thing... while they still think they're actually buying something more than a liability.

[roabre999]

I own and provide the PA. We are a 4 piece band, so we divide the pay into 5 "shares" and I get an extra share for providing the PA. I don't charge them any rent or anything to use it for practicing. If anything goes wrong I'm the guy that pays for the repairs, so it works itself out.

[daklander]

The stink on the {censored} appears to me to be they helped you pay for it. How so? If that's indeed the deal they own a percentage of the PA system. If they fronted you the money and it's been repaid then it is, indeed yours and you can and should get an extra kick. That can be in 2/5ths for a four piece band, or what ever, until the thing is paid for. Then it can drop but realize the depreciation of the gear keeps that going beyond the actual cost of the gear.

Another point to bring up, and will likely cause a huge bone of contention in your situation is the others not helping with setup and teardown. That's all fine and dandy if they don't want to be included in the PA system. If they do they have a responsibility to help with more than just plugging in their guitar into their amp and calling it enough. I presume you're also acting as soundman...

The caveate to the whole situation comes again to them helping with the purchase. If that's simply helping via the extra 10% then by all means, sell them the PA. Then they'll all have to help, not only with setup and teardown but sound too. Won't be long, I'm betting, before they get the drift.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by daklander The stink on the {censored} appears to me to be they helped you pay for it.

 

The stink on the {censored} is that they think they have a vested interest in an asset.

 

I stongly suggest that you offer to let them "capitalize on their vested interest"... before they realize the token amount they were paying to buy in covered maybe 1/2 the real depreciation.

[VanR]

Well I just did this too. I purchased a small PA (~$3200) for the band to use because renting a PA was killing us. The band pitched in $1200 on the initial purchase and I fronted the rest. So far we have done 1 gig with the system (last night) and I am ready for the band to pay the thing off already and let me out from under it. Should take about 4 more gigs to pay off at our current pay scale per gig. I am getting all the band money until it is paid off. Seems as though since these guys own a piece of the PA now they all think they are soundmen. And we all know too many cooks spoil the soup. If I can make it through December and get all my money back I will never do this again. Any future gear bought by the band for the band will have to be funded by the band in advance. The bank is closed.

To the OP I say tell them to buy a PA if they somehow think it is unfair for you to get extra pay. You are taking the risk. And in a year or 2 you will own a PA that is worth almost nothing if you try to sell it. They are using the thing, Why not pay to use it or they could pay some stranger 3 times as much to rent sound. I don't understand when you try to do something good for someone and they don't appreciate it.

[kevinnem]

I ahve be burned WAY to may times to count with the whole philosiphy we are talking about her.

 

In the big picture, there is an issue, and everyone had some "problem" and YOU are teh one that steps up to the plate, ponyies up the cash, and ends up getting screewed in the end.

 

Its real easy, call it a very expensive hobby of owning sound gear, or look REAL hard at the money it cost you to get it, what else you could have done with that money (want a new TV, .. or maybe to retire some day?), then look at the extra time you spend each week dealing with soudn "stuff". then ask your self what you want to do, i think it will be clear. This is something that i am strugeling with a lot in my life, and am working on a lot.

 

 

10% no thats fair at all, .. I would say 60% would touch the tip of the ice berg, assumeing you where doing 6-800$ shows.

 

regarding eth trailer, .. fine, price out what a trailer cost per day, ... if your area is like mine, the trailer will cost teh same as *1* of the amps. The rest is extra.

 

 

Last bit of advice, is DO NOT SIT ON THIS! you need to attack it ASAP cause it WILL start to eat away at you.

 

Kev.

 

- king of being the "nice guy that gets screewed".

[JohnnyGraphic]

I also think that one of the things to consider is that what if you left that band? Not only are they out a musician, but a soundguy/setter upper-tearer downer guy/PA owner dude.

 

What would they do in that situation? Just hire another guitar player? And then what? They would have to go fish for a soundguy/pa dude/setter upper-tearer downer guy. How much is that? Not sure in your locale. But, perhaps call a few music shops and inquire.

 

You PA gear costs money. Your time and PA expertise costs money. This is a business. Run it like one and you'll be happier.

 

But, like everybody else said, have a band meeting. Present facts. Offer other solutions. "Hey Jimbo!-Do you want to buy the PA off of me? And then you can be the sound guy for an extra 10% cut!!!" You'll be better off financially.

 

Johnny

[paulo]

I just think, when you look back on it all one day, if the reason the band split can be traced back to this money thing you'll feel sad.

 

In a team, anything that seems unfair gets magnified and bad feelings soon get out of control and everything can disintegrate real fast.

 

I think you should tell the guys 'thanks' for helping out with some of the PA cost but the quarter thing's done now so you can all go back to equal shares on gig nights. It's your PA and they're lucky to have you and leave it at that.

 

Petty squabbles have broken up most of the great bands and they all seem to regret it in the end. If you can avoid that for the sake of a few dollars then take a deep breath and get on with making the best music you can.

 

Good luck!

[Guest Anonymous]

Originally posted by paulo I just think, when you look back on it all one day, if the reason the band split can be traced back to this money thing you'll feel sad. In a team, anything that seems unfair gets magnified and bad feelings soon get out of control and everything can disintegrate real fast. I think you should tell the guys 'thanks' for helping out with some of the PA cost but the quarter thing's done now so you can all go back to equal shares on gig nights. It's your PA and they're lucky to have you and leave it at that. Petty squabbles have broken up most of the great bands and they all seem to regret it in the end. If you can avoid that for the sake of a few dollars then take a deep breath and get on with making the best music you can. Good luck!

I personally don't see a squabble about "all members of a band sharing equally in the pay but then also being expected to equally share all the direct band expenses" as petty.

 

It gets more complicated when a lead personality is the primary draw of the band.

 

But to each his own. So if you don't have a problem with supplying a free PA... where do you draw the line? Free transportation? Pick-up the band's bar tab at the end of the night? All expense paid vacation for the band when they need a break? Buy them all houses and new cars? Buy their kids and all their relatives houses and new cars... and make sure they're all flush with plenty of walking around money?

[paulo]

Petty cash.