Suggestions for PA for Acoustic Guitar Band

[drrocko]

Hey all. What kind of PA would you guys recommend for a band that features mainly three part harmony, acoustic guitars, electric bass, and drums? Price not as important as getting the right system. Our fans say they really like us because we don't play at loud volumes. It's basically small/medium clubs/bars/occasional outdoor gigs. We don;t want heavy volume because our following is 40+ and they prefer moderate volume (so do we!). The main objective is to reproduce GREAT sounds of our band- to "fill" the room with rich full, warm sound but at a reasonably moderate volume. Also, ease of setup is very important. Would prefer powered mixer type of setup if this would satisfy all the above criteria. Any suggestions?? Can we get all of the above?

[flanc]

Do you plan on mic'ing the kick drum or putting any bass in the speakers? I'm guessing by your "powered mixer" comment that you are not planning on using sub's?

 

I'd recommend you consider powered speakers and a passive mixer for two main reasons:

 

1) Scalability - if you decide to play larger places, you can add more speakers (and matching amps). With a powered mixer, your kinda stuck with the amp that is married to the mixer.

 

2) FOH mixing - If you ever want to have someone run sound for the band, moving a powered mixer out to the FOH mix position moves the amp too. This means you have to have long speaker cables which are not ideal in audio.

 

Give us some more details and we'll probably be able to steer you in the right direction.

[Guest Anonymous]

Speakers:

 

http://www.meyersound.com/products/ultraseries/upa-1p/

 

http://www.meyersound.com/products/ultraseries/usw-1p/

 

Mix board:

 

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/ContentDetail/ModelSeriesDetail/0,,CNTID%253D40407%2526CTID%253D560488,00.html

 

Then all you'd need is a few mics, stands, and cables.

[drrocko]

I'd like to have the flexibilty to add subs later on if we feel the enhanced sound outweighs the extra setup requirements etc. We play in a local club that has a Mackie system with subs and it always sounds great. It's a lot to carry and setup though. Also, being 40+ ourselves, carrying and lifting heavy (powered) speakers is a bit of an issue. Passive speakers are not as bulky and heavy to carry and lift onto a stand. But here's the bottom line. If powered speakers are the path to the best sound in our category, then so be it. We'll deal with weight and bulk issues as well. I guess one of the other issues is, how much PA do we need for our configuration.We are an acoustic based band so I don't know that we need the same pa requirement as a funk or dance band. Ahhh, so many choices....

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by drrocko I'd like to have the flexibilty to add subs later on if we feel the enhanced sound outweighs the extra setup requirements etc.

 

So you're currently playing without drums or bass?

[drrocko]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile So you're currently playing without drums or bass?

 

 

We do have bass and drums. Occasionally we play a small enough room where we don't use the drummer. We generally don't run the drums or bass throug the PA though. Should we?

[ihateyouguys]

 

Originally posted by drrocko Also, being 40+ ourselves, carrying and lifting heavy (powered) speakers is a bit of an issue. Passive speakers are not as bulky and heavy to carry and lift onto a stand.

 

 

Hercules and on stage stands (and probably others) make hand cranked speaker stands so you don't have to lift your speakers up as high.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by drrocko We do have bass and drums. Occasionally we play a small enough room where we don't use the drummer. We generally don't run the drums or bass throug the PA though. Should we?

 

If you're fixin to run the drums and/or bass through the PA, you will want to include subs if the quality of the sound is paramount.

 

Should you run the drums or bass through the PA? That depends, but generally, I'd say "yes".

 

I play occasionally with a group that does primarily acoustic instrument and intense vocal harmony stuff... but if drums and bass are included, at a minimum, we mic the kick and an over-head on the kit with a DI out of my bass head. It's not for SPL or coverage, but more for tonality, and to keep the SPL level a little lower on the "stage" (our stage is usually whatever corner of the room we're set-up in).

 

And, FWIW: I run as elaborate sound equipment on the acoustic night stuff as I do on the full-on R&R nights... and the acoustic nights can be more demanding from the soundperson's standpoint than the R&R nights. The crowds can certainly be much more discerning on acoustic night as compaired to R&R night. From what I've seen, the term "unplugged" is one of the all-time great misnomers.

[drrocko]

 

Originally posted by Audiopile If you're fixin to run the drums and/or bass through the PA, you will want to include subs if the quality of the sound is paramount. Should you run the drums or bass through the PA? That depends, but generally, I'd say "yes". I play occasionally with a group that does primarily acoustic instrument and intense vocal harmony stuff... but if drums and bass are included, at a minimum, we mic the kick and an over-head on the kit with a DI out of my bass head. It's not for SPL or coverage, but more for tonality, and to keep the SPL level a little lower on the "stage" (our stage is usually whatever corner of the room we're set-up in). And, FWIW: I run as elaborate sound equipment on the acoustic night stuff as I do on the full-on R&R nights... and the acoustic nights can be more demanding from the soundperson's standpoint than the R&R nights. The crowds can certainly be much more discerning on acoustic night as compaired to R&R night. From what I've seen, the term "unplugged" is one of the all-time great misnomers.

 

 

Interesting comment on the acoustic night perspective. I think I'd have to agree. Playing acoustic strips away all bells and whistles and you're left with guitar and vocals. The more stripped down we are, the more each part is noticed and it's importance is increased. Would you still use subs in the acoustic setting?

 

I might also ask, what sizes of speakers should we be considring for our setup. I think we may start out with mains and no subs then add subs later as our budget allows. I think this would be the optimal setup. So then powered speakers or passive?

[drrocko]

 

Originally posted by ihateyouguys Hercules and on stage stands (and probably others) make hand cranked speaker stands so you don't have to lift your speakers up as high.

 

 

Great idea.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by drrocko Would you still use subs in the acoustic setting? I might also ask, what sizes of speakers should we be considring for our setup. So then powered speakers or passive?

 

Well... generally I use the unpowered versions of the speakers I referenced in the links provided in my previous post. And, yes, if drums and bass are involved, I always bring the subs. The reason I run the unpowered version is simply 'cause it's what I have. If I was buying new, and buying now, I'd buy the powered version... and for what I do now (which sounds to be alot like what you do), I think I'd buy exactly what I suggested with the links.

 

I have a pair of EAW JF-100's which I use occasionally without subs in real small intimate settings, but those are for strictly vocal and acoustical instrument engagements... piano bar and "pickin & grinnin" stuff. You know... a gal on a stool with a guitar... singing about life... to the coffee shop group.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by drrocko Hey all. What kind of PA would you guys recommend for a band that features mainly three part harmony, acoustic guitars, electric bass, and drums? Price not as important as getting the right system. Our fans say they really like us because we don't play at loud volumes. It's basically small/medium clubs/bars/occasional outdoor gigs. We don;t want heavy volume because our following is 40+ and they prefer moderate volume (so do we!). The main objective is to reproduce GREAT sounds of our band- to "fill" the room with rich full, warm sound but at a reasonably moderate volume. Also, ease of setup is very important. Would prefer powered mixer type of setup if this would satisfy all the above criteria. Any suggestions?? Can we get all of the above?

Since when is 40+ limiting? You maybe you've gotten smarter. Our 3-piece band,(all in our late 40's) sets up and tears down, 4)150lb subs, 4)80lb top cabs, 2)100-150lb racks, lights, monitors, and our personal gear.

[Guest Anonymous]

Originally posted by tlbonehead Since when is 40+ limiting? You maybe you've gotten smarter.

 

Heck... gravity on earth is only an acceleration force of 32ft./sec/sec.

 

Now if we were playing rhythm and blues on Jupiter... life might be tough.

 

and I ain't never heard a blues song about lumping gear. Humm...

 

"Came home late last night... 'bout a quarter past 4

 

My baby was gone, there was a note on the door.

 

She hurt me this time. Took my ramp, Magliner, and Econoline.

 

Guess I ain't playing the blues no-more!

 

That woman's evil, bad as she can be.

 

Left me with with nothin but my guitar and no way to deal with gravity."

[flanc]

I'm a 43 yo member of the weekend warrior geezer club.

 

My tops weigh 85lbs (I have 4) and the subs are about 65 ...also 4 and the wedges are about 60lbs, once again 4.

 

My points earlier about powered speakers were mainly in response to the OP's stated direction toward a powered mixer. I certainly feel like a passive speaker coupled with a right fitting amp and passive mixer is a great way to go. In fact, all my cabinets (in my gig rig) are passive with discrete amps and mixers driving them.

 

My real point was that powered mixers are a real convenient gadget if you don't plan on growing; I have a Mackie 808m in my practice room and it's great for that. Once you do grow beyond it's capacity...it get's a bit kludgey and the once convenient gadget is now a bad gear purchase. For instance, if you want to add subs later...you have to take a line out the powered mixer into a xover. Then take a line-out of the hi side of the xover back into the amp-in of the powered mixer. Anyway...I'm rambling....time to go to the second night of a two night gig.

[drrocko]

Well I guess I'd like to find the best for the least (amount of work that is). Also, one thing I didn't mention-none of us in our band are really audio engineer type guys, not that I can't learn but all this talk about powering the speakers just right or else..kinda scares me a little. Powered speakers would take all of that into consideration, no? IOW, wouldn't it be tougher to blow a powered speaker than a passive?

 

And aren't there a lot of smaller speakers (12") and subs (10-15")on the market now that could satisfy the needs of an acoustic/vocal band? They don't have to weigh in at 150lbs each do they? Again, not looking for heart thumping levels of volume.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by drrocko Well I guess I'd like to find the best for the least (amount of work that is). Also, one thing I didn't mention-none of us in our band are really audio engineer type guys, not that I can't learn but all this talk about powering the speakers just right or else..kinda scares me a little. Powered speakers would take all of that into consideration, no? IOW, wouldn't it be tougher to blow a powered speaker than a passive? And aren't there a lot of smaller speakers (12") and subs (10-15")on the market now that could satisfy the needs of an acoustic/vocal band? They don't have to weigh in at 150lbs each do they? Again, not looking for heart thumping levels of volume.

 

Geeze.... digya even look at the links I offered?

 

The mid-highs are 12's and the subs are 15's... powered.

 

With the board I suggested and a little "reading the manual"... you have all the marbles in your bag to sound GREAT (for 30 years).

[drrocko]

I did. Sorry I didn't look at those specs before. I'll get a more thorough look now. What kind of $$ are we talking for 2 mains and 2 subs??

[drrocko]

Just got back from a local club that has Mackies mains and subs and the band playing was outstanding. However, the sound system seemed a little underpowered for what they were tryin to do. I realized the vocals were not crisp or even clear- very muddy IMO. Could've been the temporary sound guy they plugged in for the night. Anyway, it's a good experience to listen from the other side of the stage. I think my ears are getting a little more tuned in to the needs of our band. I checked out the prices on the Meyer stuff. It may be a little (OK a lot) over our budget, I know I said $ was not an issue but I was thinking along the lines of Yorkvilles or Ev's at around 500-750- per cabinet. The Meyer stuff is $2500-$4000 per cab. Definately way more than I thought but I appreciate the direction.

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by drrocko Just got back from a local club that has Mackies mains and subs and the band playing was outstanding. However, the sound system seemed a little underpowered for what they were tryin to do. I realized the vocals were not crisp or even clear- very muddy IMO. Could've been the temporary sound guy they plugged in for the night. Anyway, it's a good experience to listen from the other side of the stage. I think my ears are getting a little more tuned in to the needs of our band. I checked out the prices on the Meyer stuff. It may be a little (OK a lot) over our budget, I know I said $ was not an issue but I was thinking along the lines of Yorkvilles or Ev's at around 500-750- per cabinet. The Meyer stuff is $2500-$4000 per cab. Definately way more than I thought but I appreciate the direction.

 

Well, the Meyer effortlessly punches out clean, clear vocals (and everything else). They are the standard by which everything else is judged.

 

I'm of the opinion that time is the one finite. If I'm gonna invest time doing a job, I'm gonna stack the cards in my favor if possible... by working with the best suited tools for the job. IME, I have yet to hear any $500 - $750 cabinet that really sounds good, esp. with the vocals. $500 - $750 buys mediocre cabinets which deliver mediocre performance. If I thought otherwise, I'd ditch my Meyer and EAW stuff in a heartbeat. If mediocre is good enough, then it's good enough.

[agedhorse]

Check out the JBL SRX-700 series or the MRX-500 series. Both are much better than average. Neither are "cheap".

[drrocko]

Thanks you all for your input. I am a real newbie with this stuff so all of this so far is a learning experience. I had no idea that a PA speaker could even cost as much as the Meyers but now I know. Frankly, I thought $2500 would buy a decent system for our little band but my expectations have definitely changed. We may indeed wait and go for a top of the line system like Meyer. Thanks for your help.

[DaBender]

You can spend $250,00 on a car if you wish. Most folks find that they can get around quite well for a good bit less.

[witesol]

I'll admit being a member of the 40+ bad back, often lazy club. I play quite regularly, run sound regularly and a host of other audio tasks. I also do a lot of one-man sound gigs. While the Meyer are very nice, I'd not spend that in your shoes. Check out what Agedhorse suggests. Those JBLs work well.

 

In my experiences as a player, I've gotten a lot of use out of the Mackie 808m mentioned above, teamed with some Yamaha Club series S115Vs

(the smallest 15+horn I've found, light, car loadable) for most gigs. On slightly bigger gigs I'll often put up 4 of them and run to an external power amp(typically a P7000s, RMX2450, RMX1450, P3500)using the internal amps for monitors. This can handle modest kick drum and bass and sound great. Anything past that it's the full deal system. I don't like active systems. I find it annoying to run AC all over the place and adding additional coverage means another pair of costly cabs.They're heavy too. What I've done recently is to get monitor wedge Yamaha Clubs that are nearly identical to the mains with a pole mt, only can be monitors where the mains aren't shaped so well for that. Unlike some folks I find the Mackie to have a lot of utility on even my big sound gigs, as backup for a blown instrument amp, additional monitor mix power and I've often used it as a personal monitor amp when FOH was in a compromised position and I needed something to set up for me.

just an estimation not including stands, mics, cords;

808m-$600

Yamaha Club S115- $380ea X4= $1520

Yamaha P5000 amp- $650

4 speaker stands-$300

that's about $3k if shopped wisely, probably a system that will do most of your gigs without breaking your back.

 

Monitors?

S112-$280ea

 

that's new prices. I buy a lot of used gear and $2500 spent wisely gets a lot of stuff.

Just some info to consider

[drrocko]

 

Originally posted by witesol I'll admit being a member of the 40+ bad back, often lazy club. I play quite regularly, run sound regularly and a host of other audio tasks. I also do a lot of one-man sound gigs. While the Meyer are very nice, I'd not spend that in your shoes. Check out what Agedhorse suggests. Those JBLs work well. In my experiences as a player, I've gotten a lot of use out of the Mackie 808m mentioned above, teamed with some Yamaha Club series S115Vs (the smallest 15+horn I've found, light, car loadable) for most gigs. On slightly bigger gigs I'll often put up 4 of them and run to an external power amp(typically a P7000s, RMX2450, RMX1450, P3500)using the internal amps for monitors. This can handle modest kick drum and bass and sound great. Anything past that it's the full deal system. I don't like active systems. I find it annoying to run AC all over the place and adding additional coverage means another pair of costly cabs.They're heavy too. What I've done recently is to get monitor wedge Yamaha Clubs that are nearly identical to the mains with a pole mt, only can be monitors where the mains aren't shaped so well for that. Unlike some folks I find the Mackie to have a lot of utility on even my big sound gigs, as backup for a blown instrument amp, additional monitor mix power and I've often used it as a personal monitor amp when FOH was in a compromised position and I needed something to set up for me. just an estimation not including stands, mics, cords; 808m-$600 Yamaha Club S115- $380ea X4= $1520 Yamaha P5000 amp- $650 4 speaker stands-$300 that's about $3k if shopped wisely, probably a system that will do most of your gigs without breaking your back. Monitors? S112-$280ea that's new prices. I buy a lot of used gear and $2500 spent wisely gets a lot of stuff. Just some info to consider

 

 

Thank you so much. It's great to see such a diverse group of opinions on this subject. I think this type of setup was what I had in mind and all of the opinions about powered vs unpowered really help.

[Guest Anonymous]

Originally posted by drrocko Thanks you all for your input. I am a real newbie with this stuff so all of this so far is a learning experience. I had no idea that a PA speaker could even cost as much as the Meyers but now I know.

You might find that when considering the entire package, spending more in one area might offer considerable savings in other areas.

 

Originally posted by drrocko Frankly, I thought $2500 would buy a decent system for our little band but my expectations have definitely changed. We may indeed wait and go for a top of the line system like Meyer. Thanks for your help.

Small yet reasonably high performance, powered, really good sounding, reliable, and user friendly is a fairly expensive criterion list.

 

An entry level PA or even a few notches up can be had for possibly less than the cost of decent performance grade acoustic guitar; however, as you go up the performance ladder with PA gear, the price goes up pretty quick.

 

I don't think you ever go back. I don't know that I've ever heard anyone say: "You know... this is just too good for what I need... I think I'll sell it and buy something not as good." with either guitars, or PA gear.