how small a PA??

[Unalaska]

First off this is not a post about quality of PA on a stick at all, so those of you with a Kustom PA from MF that swear it sounds like EAW etc don't bother... Sorry to be rude on that point but I was thinking about something today...

 

I have a gig for sat that only 65 people (63 I'm told) will be in attendance. We did the gig last year in the Hyatt in a 30x60 room with a small PA (EV S122's over S181's). PLENTY of system.

 

This year it's moved to a fancy restaurant downtown, same small not rowdy at all crowd (laywers). So I'm thinking about bringing in 2x EV 15" tops, no subs and use basically a vox only PA with a touch of kick in the mix. We can live with one mix which is ok, but the set-up would be quicker etc etc ect...

 

at what point does the venue get SO small that you decide to make the jump to SOS? is there a certain threshold to be met?

for your general consumption...

[agedhorse]

It really depends on what you consider a speaker on a stick.

 

For example, the Meyer UPA-1 or 2 would be a heck of a lot different than a Yamaha Club or a "Kustom" etc. With the better speaker, you are paying for the privlege of smaller, more compact, more sensitive etc.

 

I do a lot of speaker on a stick type events, but my speakers are much better quality, and chosen for the application. Sometimes I will use a pair a side if I need some dispersion, or stacked horn to horn if I need a little more horsepower, but I have 10" custom biamped boxes similar to a scaled down UPA. I also have stacking hardware so I can go 2 high on a stand. If I need some bottom, I'll bring out something like a USW and leave it on one side.

 

Not cheap but very compact and quick.

[moody]

I think that given the situation, the system you described would probably be ideal.

 

I've done an awful lot of 'loud' gigs using speaker on a stick systems without subs without any problems. Sure it's not ideal but for the volume level that you will have to be playing at it should be fine.

 

I'd be considering getting the drummer to use hotrods in order to keep your overall volume levels down though - full drums in a restaurant will probably not be well looked at.

[daklander]

Originally posted by moody I think that given the situation, the system you described would probably be ideal. I've done an awful lot of 'loud' gigs using speaker on a stick systems without subs without any problems. Sure it's not ideal but for the volume level that you will have to be playing at it should be fine. I'd be considering getting the drummer to use hotrods in order to keep your overall volume levels down though - full drums in a restaurant will probably not be well looked at.

 

to that.

 

Don't forget that you're not trying to get all those legal types chests thumping. You're providing entertainment to a "normally" somewhat conservative audience so you will certainly do fine sans subs.

[timmcallister]

 

Originally posted by moody Sure it's not ideal but for the volume level that you will have to be playing at it should be fine.

 

 

agreed, but I have to chuckle (not at you moody) at the general concensus on this board that an AH Mixwiz and Subs are REQUIRED. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to haul all that gear along to every gig we ever did, be it 25 or 300 people. And yes, it would provide a better SR experience. But I don't have the time, back, space or desire to do that. I have to balance being the singer, guitar player, band leader, band booker, light tech, sound tech, and gear hauler.

 

In the blues circuit in my town, we are one of the very very few who use subs, and I have never seen a band use a mixwiz (again, I am talking about the blues circuit in my town). Most bands use a powered mixer (mackie 808 and the like) 2 speakers on a stick (actually, when I think about it, some don't even use sticks, they sit them on barstools), and MAYBE a floor wedge or two (and they are usually total crap).

 

"IDEAL" is defined by the person dealing with the sound system. Ideal to me is weight, size, ease of setup while providing "good" SR in the room. sometimes that means I bring out a sub or two, sometimes that means I bring my two FBT Maxx4's and use one on a stick and the other as a floor monitor.

 

I do consider who the audience is and what their needs and expectations are. Sometimes that means I bring subs for a 50 person room, sometimes it means I bring a single FOH speaker for 200 people.

 

all this is IMHO, YMMV, blah blah blah

 

OK, flame suit is on, so fire away

[moody]

 

Originally posted by timmcallister In the blues circuit in my town, we are one of the very very few who use subs, and I have never seen a band use a mixwiz (again, I am talking about the blues circuit in my town). Most bands use a powered mixer (mackie 808 and the like) 2 speakers on a stick (actually, when I think about it, some don't even use sticks, they sit them on barstools), and MAYBE a floor wedge or two (and they are usually total crap).

 

 

I did a reasonably loud rock cover band for about 100 gigs with two basic wedges and two basic jbl single 15 and horn sitting on whatever tables etc. we could find That was using a powered soundcraft mixer and usually had vocals + a touch of kick - everything else was stage sound.

[Guest Anonymous]

Funny you should ask Pete.

 

I have a gig Sunday... involving a "tenor" with harp accompanyment in a 200 seat venue... the promoters are hoping for a packed house (of-course)... I realistically expect 75.

 

But this will be the social event of the season in the local community in-which the event is held. We're talking a 6 to 8 lady crew decorating for 2 days... and more homebaked cookies than you can shake a Christmas wreath at.

 

I've been making a concerted effort over the past 2 years to assemble the ultimate small-spanky corporate rig.

 

There's a lot of social pressure on me to pull this gig off... beyond perfect-a-mundo.

 

I'm wringing my hands about what to load in the truck.

 

Humm...

 

Soundcraft Gigrig board? or Soundcraft Venue?

Yea... the Gigrig would do the job. I think the Venue sounds the best.

 

and on, and on...

 

aargh....

 

I did a show similar to this earlier this fall. My price for doing the show was contingent on the "supplied help". The band members were mumbling about the tonnage they were packing in... I stopped them right in their tracks and questioned the drummer:

 

"So... you don't think all this is necessary (considering the size of the venue). Tell me: Will you be scaling down your drum kit?"

 

The drummer's answer: I see your point.

 

That was the end of the grumbling about hauling the tonnage.

 

I guess if the gig is small enough that the drummer seriously prunes their drum kit down, then that's a que that the PA can be seriously trimmed down. To me the time investment is the major factor, and if I'm gonna spend a day doing sound, the difference between a bare-bones trimmed down rig, or hauling in a few more boxes and covering the event well... there's no way to trim the rig down enough so the event doesn't take all day... so since I'm committed to the whole day, I might as well do a real good job all day (and make a few more trips to the truck), as a half-assed job all day (with more ass time).

[Unsound Practices]

I've done two SOS gigs in the past two weeks. The "good" one was a hotel ballroom, 200 people in black tie. FOH and backline was provided by us (the band)... two Nexo PS10s on sticks over a single PS500 sub on each side, everything through the PA (old GL3000). It sounded great! [EDITS: I don't own Nexos. Hired them and took responsibility for them]

 

The "crap" one was a small pub, FOH and backline provided by the venue. B****r 10" tops run off a B****r powered mixer, no subs. Vocals only on the PA, levels on the instrument amps set and locked ("You touch that, I'll break your fingers"). Appalling sound, but we had 50 people in the pub singing along to Oasis and Coldpay covers and really enjoying themselves.

 

The 50 people gig was a heck of a lot more fun and much less work from the band's perspective.

 

I'd love to get the Nexos in the small club... but what for?

[Guest Anonymous]

 

Originally posted by Unsound Practices I've done two SOS gigs in the past two weeks. The "good" one was a hotel ballroom, 200 people in black tie. FOH and backline was provided by us (the band)... two Nexo PS10s on sticks over a single PS500 sub on each side, everything through the PA (old GL3000). It sounded great! [EDITS: I don't own Nexos. Hired them and took responsibility for them] The "crap" one was a small pub, FOH and backline provided by the venue. B****r 10" tops run off a B****r powered mixer, no subs. Vocals only on the PA, levels on the instrument amps set and locked ("You touch that, I'll break your fingers"). Appalling sound, but we had 50 people in the pub singing along to Oasis and Coldpay covers and really enjoying themselves. The 50 people gig was a heck of a lot more fun and much less work from the band's perspective. I'd love to get the Nexos in the small club... but what for?

 

Very interesting!

 

Care to elaborate?

[Unsound Practices]

Originally posted by Audiopile Very interesting! Care to elaborate?

 

Well, not much to elaborate on! We (cover band) do pubs and corportate events. For pubs, PA and backline is normally there already. For corporates, we offer a "turnkey" price of band, PA. backline, lights, etc... or give the client our tech rider and have them sort PA and backline. For the "big" event earlier this month, the client wanted "turnkey" so I was responsible for PA backline for a two-band event. When I take responsibility, I have a provider of choice that I know I can rely on, and he owns the Nexo system. I'm there as the go-between sorting clean power phases with the venue, etc, as well as keeping the rest of the band sweet through line and sound check. My Nexo guy charges like a raging bull, however. That is a cost I pass on to the client with a small markup... but that means we are an "expensive" band for such events. FYI there was an error in my earlier post. The PS10s were mons, while mains was PS15s with LS1000 subs.

 

In pubs, like I said, we usually play the hand we are dealt.

 

My goal over the next 12 months is to get a decent rig togther that we can use to suppliment and improve the "pub" systems we play through, and to minimize the amount of gear we hire from Nexo guy to improve our margins or our competitiveness on corporates.

 

The Ballroom:

 

The Small Pub (view from the keyboards):

[guitarharv52]

Nice pictures!This has quite often been my experience.

 

"Ballroom" type jobs..........more money

 

"small pubs..............more fun

 

Of course this side of the Mississippi we call them Beer Joints or Bars.

[Harmonycat]

Many with a pair of 15" with horns....2 speakers 65lbs each.

 

It works well enough....But a pair 12" monitors with horns,(28lbs each) are easier to put on, (and take off), the stands.

 

I fill out the bottom with a single Subwoofer at 70lbs.

 

400 rms into 8 ohms into the sub from one side of the amp and 600 into 4 ohms(300 rms each) into the tops.

 

Cross them at 100 hz and go.

 

Much more versatile and well rounded than a pair of 15's, with a similar carry in and out.

 

It just sounds so much better!

 

With a pair of 15's, I always felt something was missing.

 

Cheers:thu:

[Unalaska]

I think some of you are missing the point here. With a very small PA there are NO subs. That was a big issue here on this gig. Also realize that monitor requirements were comprised (to put it lightly), 4 mixes down to 1.5 (don't ask). Lighting remained 2x par38 trees on sticks though.

 

I still had to charge a bit to send someone down there to load in and pickup the gear. I wasn't on the gig but apparently it went well and I got the check and cosidering the price we (the band) played for I don't care if we do the party again. It wasn't a cheap amount for jan thru nov but for dec I'd like to see 25% increase on the low end.

 

FWIW the PA was JBL JRX115's on stix powered by a mackie 406S head. monitors were some old carvin 722's with 22XT's for horns instead of the stock piezos. Again I wasn't there but the client was happy so I'm happy.

[flip333]

I am beginning to really like Speakers on sticks with no subs for regular beer joint gigs.

 

I substituted on bass for one of my old bands last Sat. night.

 

Mixwiz 16:2 > PLX3402 one side > JBL SRX715 s on sticks

2x Yamaha club IVs

 

Vocals, 2 DI'd guitars, mandolin, and kick drum into PA.

 

1100 watts out front for about 50 people. 1100 watts for monitors. I was told this was the best the band had ever sounded.

 

Easy enough to do on a regular basis.

 

I set things up so an additional rack containing a DRPA, comp/gate, and sub amp can be added for bigger better paying gigs.

[rinkydinkron]

QUOTE=Unsound Practices;19878794]Well, not much to elaborate on! We (cover band) do pubs and corportate events. For pubs, PA and backline is normally there already. For corporates, we offer a "turnkey" price of band, PA. backline, lights, etc... or give the client our tech rider and have them sort PA and backline. For the "big" event earlier this month, the client wanted "turnkey" so I was responsible for PA backline for a two-band event. When I take responsibility, I have a provider of choice that I know I can rely on, and he owns the Nexo system. I'm there as the go-between sorting clean power phases with the venue, etc, as well as keeping the rest of the band sweet through line and sound check. My Nexo guy charges like a raging bull, however. That is a cost I pass on to the client with a small markup... but that means we are an "expensive" band for such events. FYI there was an error in my earlier post. The PS10s were mons, while mains was PS15s with LS1000 subs.

 

In pubs, like I said, we usually play the hand we are dealt.

 

My goal over the next 12 months is to get a decent rig togther that we can use to suppliment and improve the "pub" systems we play through, and to minimize the amount of gear we hire from Nexo guy to improve our margins or our competitiveness on corporates.

 

The Ballroom:

 

The Small Pub (view from the keyboards):

 

 

 

Nice set up.Great to see you folks in the US are getting the chance to sample the delights of Nexo PS gear.

You do however realise that PS15 cabs are not designed to be arrayed as they are in your pic Unsound?

If you do use more than one cab a side you need to ensure each cab is splayed at 45 degrees otherwise you are asking for all sorts of comb filtering problems.

[GOSG]

 

The "crap" one was a small pub, FOH and backline provided by the venue. B****r 10" tops run off a B****r powered mixer, no subs. Vocals only on the PA, levels on the instrument amps set and locked ("You touch that, I'll break your fingers"). Appalling sound, but we had 50 people in the pub singing along to Oasis and Coldpay covers and really enjoying themselves. The 50 people gig was a heck of a lot more fun and much less work from the band's perspective. I'd love to get the Nexos in the small club... but what for?

 

 

I'm a bit biased since I own several Nexo PS-15/LS1200 systems powered by Lab. Gruppen fp6400 amps. Previous to using the Nexo system I would never have believed the quality of sound not to mention the outrageous SPL that they are capable of producing. I've used the system for everything from touring Bluegrass acts to Top-40 band to 80's Hair Metal Bands in venues ranging from small clubs to outdoor events. I and every other engineer that has heard them has been amazed at the Quality and Output for the size of the system.

 

So naturally my initial response would be: "Why use anything but the Nexo, whether it is in a ballroom or a tiny club!" Naturally the Nexo system would be a much more expensive rig, but as far as much more "work"...I don't get your point.

 

The Nexo PS system would require a separate amp rack, two long NL-4 speaker cables and two short NL-4 speaker cables to jump the subs and top boxes. So I don't see an overwhelming work increase...especially considering the increase in quality. Not to mention the opportunity to book better paying "Black Tie gigs" and pocket the money you spent to hire the better rig.

 

I guess that I could ask a guitarist why bother spending more money for a high priced guitar or amp when a cheap one does the same thing? Does the audience REALLY know the difference?

[GOSG]

 

Nice set up.Great to see you folks in the US are getting the chance to sample the delights of Nexo PS gear. You do however realise that PS15 cabs are not designed to be arrayed as they are in your pic Unsound? If you do use more than one cab a side you need to ensure each cab is splayed at 45 degrees otherwise you are asking for all sorts of comb filtering problems.

 

 

 

Correct point about arraying the PS-15 and comb filtering, although I have used two boxes in situations where the venue is very WIDE with great success. Not an ideal application of the enclosures, but the results still sounded better than some systems that I have heard that were designed to be array-able! LOL!

[Unalaska]

Just one quick observation: where are the stage lights in the ballroom pic? How did the band get lit up (w. lighting)?

 

As far as pub gigs being easier than a black tie party, well yeah! The only reason to play the nicer party is for the money, the load in is usually 3 hrs before the 1st guest arrives, lots of sitting and waiting for time to play. No set playing times, no set person in charge always. Someone wants this and someone wants that but they are totally different. BUT

 

You go home earlier, no one is drunk in a fight outside your van, there aren't legions of cops waiting for your party to let out, beer isn't spilled as liberally on your gear, drunks (almost) never want to play your guitar or get up on stage when you're on break, crowd is there to see you and this party is the only one their going to ("lets go to the other bar, i don't like this place"). The $ at the end of the night... I'd MUCH rather have that AND be appreciated.

 

p

 

BTW, the gig in the original post did indeed turn into a next december party as well as one in august..

[twostone]

Very interesting! Care to elaborate?

 

Is that you Mark? if so it's great to have you back.

[daklander]

Is that you Mark? if so it's great to have you back.

 

Check the date....

[Unsound Practices]

Wow, I forgot about this thread. Some answers and comments;

 

rinkydinkron; I'm actually in Asia, not the US. Interesting point about comb filtering. Next time we use that system I'll have a chat to the guy and play around a bit.

Unalaska; stage lights were on either side of room pointed at the stage. I forget what they were called but they look like vertical pars with a remote controlled mirror thing that points the lights at the stage. Good lighting at that gig. Also hired from my Nexo guy with someone to drive it.

GOSG; I hear you. As I (slowly!) put my own rig together buying quality is something I'm doing as much as possible. I might end up owning those Nexos . They use the Nexo frontend on that system as well.

 

FWIW we just did a gig in another room where the event management guys spec'd the PA. Four d&b Q series subs and two of the Q series tops on each side in vertical arrays on wheels. That system sounded better than the Nexos... but it was a heck of a lot more speakers and amp watts in an accoustically better space. I also think the guys driving it were more experienced. They get my first call on the next "big" one.