Members jpand2071 Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 Hi All, I've been contacted to provide audio for a large lecture in a basketball arena. This room has absolutely pathetic acoustics. Reverb time is about 3 seconds. Ceiling has to be at least 60-75 feet. Room is about 150' from stage to back wall. Seating is raised on the sides of the court, with the first row starting about 10' above the court, about 15-20 rows on each side. Also, seats will be laid down on the court for this event. I've been debating the best system for this event. The only rated rigging position is in the very front of the room. My thought is a compact line array (xlc or geo)from the front of the room, and some tall pipe and drape to line the back wall with to try and kill some of the reverberation. The other option is to try and distribute audio and delay each send. THis would likely sound better but kill sight lines. What would you do in this situation (aside from not taking the job). Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 How about some IEMs for everyone in the audience? Na. I guess that wouldn't be too practical. Have you thought of faking an injury? Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopyle Sound Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 Is there a balcony? If so, will it also be occupied? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpand2071 Posted February 1, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 The shape of the building is strange....let me try and explain a little more clearly. The court is on ground level. Seats will be placed on the court. There's a balcony on the sides where the first row overhangs the court, about 10' off the ground. This balcony will be occupied. There is no raised seating directly across from the "stage." The only raised seating is on each side of the court Let me know if I can attempt to clarify any more. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 Sounds like you understand the job you are undertaking and are anticipating the inevitable results. About the best you can do is use all the good practices you can and hope for the best ... or at least getting by. Once you get the gear set up as best it's gonna be the best thing I could recommend is spending some time with the performer and coach them on some good mic technique. There's a hugh amount to gain or lose here. Beyond that ... get them a basketball. It's kinda the same reason they don't play basketball in lecture halls ... they are not made for it. BTW ... the 60 - 75 foot ceiling in this case is your friend as the reflections will be so late they shouldn't interfere much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 Hi All, I've been contacted to provide audio for a large lecture in a basketball arena. This room ha...What would you do in this situation (aside from not taking the job). Thanks I am working on a similair issue right now, but have no fly points. my plan is to use a larder number of delay speakers (maybe 8-10 speakers) by focusing the sound back to the listening area .. again again, and again... and keeping the indevidual speaker to lower volumes .. I am hopeing to over come a large portion of the reverb in the room. I still expect significate issue in the lower octives though. in this regard, I will likely start with more agressive high pass filters then I would normally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpand2071 Posted February 1, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 Once you get the gear set up as best it's gonna be the best thing I could recommend id spending some time with the performer and coach them on some good mic technique. . Definitely an excellent suggestion - didn't think about this, but I'll make a point to spend some time with the lecturer. Thanks for the advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpand2071 Posted February 1, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 I am working on a similair issue right now, but have no fly points. my plan is to use a larder number of delay speakers (maybe 8-10 speakers) by focusing the sound back to the listening area .. again again, and again... and keeping the indevidual speaker to lower volumes .. I am hopeing to over come a large portion of the reverb in the room. I still expect significate issue in the lower octives though. in this regard, I will likely start with more agressive high pass filters then I would normally. It might be worth researching if the entire building is fly rated. (Ceiling is all I- beams). I know the front is because there's a grid and I have the specs on that, but If the entire building is, I could follow similarly to what Kev is doing and fly, say 3 clusters of 2 cabs each per side (properly delayed). High pass filter will definitely be agressively used, as this event is strictly spoken word. Thanks for the reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopyle Sound Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 If there is a railing at the front of the balcony seating you may be able to utilize that to mount small delay cabinets. My inventory includes a bunch of 12 lb. Renkus Heinz Microtraps that are perfect for that kind of use. I've covered a room similar to what you describe using Unity cabs for the mains and several the Microtraps delayed for balcony and underbalcony fill. They were very unobtrusive and run just loud enough to overcome the reflected sound in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 You may be surprised, coverage from the front with a pair (as in left/right) of compact line arrays may be almost ideal, with the possible addition of fills for the extreme near sides. Something like the 120-ish degree wide lines (QSC) might minimize the need for fills as well. If the arena fills up, bodies will help tremendously. Paying attention to conservative eq (not over-eqing) and appropriate high pass filtering (around 100Hz) with NO subs is also indicated. I regularly do speaking events in a 12,000-ish seat arena and have used 3 different configurations depending on the event... the installed distributed system w/ center cluster (we installed & upgraded & managed since 1981), a traditional ground stacked (on scaffolding) array of 6 (3 way) traps per side, and a flown (low trim) compact line array and all 3 were completely acceptable. Fills were of course necessary for back fill behind the stage when seating config. required this. Don's comments about mic technique is by far the single most important detail. Also, a lav mic is definately not recommended and in place of one (if that's what they really want) a headset or micro headset or earset mic is WAY better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 Once you get the gear set up as best it's gonna be the best thing I could recommend is spending some time with the performer and coach them on some good mic technique. The key on this is to get them to speak SLOWLY AND DISTINCTLY? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 headset or micro headset or earset mic is WAY better +1! or run them direct:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 Handheld is also a good choice, depending on the lecturer's style. Some prefer a handheld or a podium mounted mic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DJ Swydez Posted February 1, 2007 Members Share Posted February 1, 2007 I attended an event held last year in a high school basketball gym with similar dimensions as you described, although I am guessing the ceiling was more like 50 or so feet high. This gym also had 2 side balconies and a good deal of main floor seating. A theatrical company was hired to provide sound, a stage, and everything else needed for a public-speaking and music setup. About 20 different people spoke, and all different types of music were used (from country to rap to rock) in between people speaking as intros and filler music. The system consisted of 2 stacks (1 per side) of 1 EV QRx 218 and 2 QRx 212/75 tops. 4 EV Sx speakers on sticks were also used for side fills. About 1500 or so people were in attendance and this system was awesome for that event. It had plenty of sound for both the speeches and the music played, and some of the people complained there was too much bass and that they could feel it in their seats. Idk if this will work for you or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpand2071 Posted February 2, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 2, 2007 So I spent about an hour today in the building, drawing up a rig plot and looking at all the possible scenarios. I've decided to use a combination of the suggestions presented. To cover the side balconies, we're going to fly 4 zx5s on each side, in groups of two, properly delayed. This works out pretty conveniently since I need to put the trusses up there for lighting anyway. To cover the floor, we're going to use a small, 4 element line array, center hung. I'll post pictures once the event is completed. Thanks to everyone for the input and suggestions Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DJ Swydez Posted February 2, 2007 Members Share Posted February 2, 2007 Nice decision! Just curious here, what are you going to use to mount several speakers, lights, and trusses up on a 65-70 foot ceiling? A crane? How do you guys get those things up there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members milesdf Posted February 2, 2007 Members Share Posted February 2, 2007 the ceiling really isnt 65', this was a very liberal estimate on his part, the real height as determined today to the beams we want to hit is we rent chain hoists whenever we need to do shows like this, we've never done one in that building before. we send our loads and positions to the facilities department here and they get an engineer to certify it. we did a show in the big arena last year. the arena has a solid roof with points permanently installed (very recently), the highest of which is just about 60' and during basketball season right over the parque court (can't touch it). Also there is a lighting grid in the way. Had to use an 85' articulating boom crane to get to it, and it was pretty scary. Luckily the place has a decent sized garage door to get that in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpand2071 Posted February 2, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 2, 2007 It's kinda the same reason they don't play basketball in lecture halls ... they are not made for it. btw, when i worked at the garden/radio city in NY a few years ago, they always had the NY Liberty (Women's BBall) play one or two games a season at radio city music hall...strangest setup i've ever seen. Just throwin it out there. Back to the topic at hand, luckily this guy is going to lecture from a podium, so thank god I dont need to deal with a lav or even headset. Also, it is about 45' to the grid, as miles said. Thanks again all- Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpand2071 Posted February 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 Just wanted to resurrect this thread to show how the event turned out. Apologies for the poor quality pictures. All in all, we had the balcony sounding terrific - clearest I've ever heard in that building....Unfortunately the floor was another story. It sounded pretty decent on the floor, until the last 8-10 rows...just weren't getting the throw we needed. Next time, I'll pack some delay fills for the rear of the floor. Enjoy the pics, and once again, thanks for all the advice. [ATTACH]222600[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpand2071 Posted February 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 [ATTACH]222601[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members belayslave Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 hey Joe, i just wanted to ask something about that last photo. Do i see correctly that the purple sling has been threaded directly through the rigging rings on the top of the box? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpand2071 Posted February 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 Yes, the spansets are threaded through the rings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 Looking at the photo, I think a center hung set of something on the order of the QSC Wideline array (6-8 elements per array) angled out about 45 degrees each (from center line) would have done it without worrying about covering the sides and back. The very off stage seats (assuming they were being used) could be covered with outside fills from next to the stage off the floor even, or hung outside the main arrays. The volume from those would be very low and high passed around 3-400 to fill in everything but the low wraparound. That would sure be easier, and maybe better sounding. How many does the arena seat in that config> I have done something very similar in an arena seating about 10k with excellent results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jpand2071 Posted February 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 without a doubt, a center hung array would have been tremendously easier. Each of those zx5s was on a different delay, so it involved 4 -nl2 runs to each truss. This arena seats about 4,000(including floor seats). I think next time, I'll try the array idea, it's a ton less work. Andy, how bad was the reverb in that arena that you said you used the center hung array for? I only ask because this building that we were in is the worst sounding building I've ever worked in. I wonder if an array could overcome the 3 second reverb time. Can't hurt to try it next time, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 23, 2007 Members Share Posted February 23, 2007 The reverb is primarily multiple slaps combined with an empty wood floor and some 3' x 3' box beam steel faces. The ceiling deck is sprayed w/ K-13 and some of the structural steel is sprayed with fire retardant. The RT-60 is not so long nor so swimming that it's an issue. It's also pretty decent when full, though 10k people do make a lot of noise themselves at times. I tink the maximum capacity is around 12k-14k depending on configuration. None of the solutions will be perfect, but some are much easier to impliment than others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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