Members GregHENDRICK Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Hey, guys. I asked this in the drummer forum. I probably should've asked here first. Our drummer wants a click track in his ear, live. He's got a DB-88 or 90, not sure which, but it's a small click, he can easily find clicks on. But... it has NO power. Meaning, when its in his ear, it's not loud enough. He wants to hear the click in some kind of ear-bud/headphone, but also hear the moniter mix (we don't have in-ears) Any good suggestions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Get in ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members prosigna Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 A Rolls PM-50 headphone amp will allow you to feed two different signals into the little box and mix between them to taste. 50-bucks + Headphones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gregidon Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Wired In-ears are fairly cheap these days. Make sure that if you go this way you get something that has a built in limiter (like a shure wired pack) to protect your hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 I think that maybe a headphone amp like someone said, to a set of in ears ear buds, but only putting the click track into it, and only using ONE of the ear buds might permit a pretty workable solution? If you don't want to go "all the way"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gregidon Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 I think that maybe a headphone amp like someone said, to a set of in ears ear buds, but only putting the click track into it, and only using ONE of the ear buds might permit a pretty workable solution? If you don't want to go "all the way"? 1 word of caution is that there is a tendency to turn up the earphone to a point that is is louder than the noise coming into the open ear, this is a sure way to damage the hearing. I'd warn your drummer to try to avoid this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GregHENDRICK Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 So... What about some way to get his DB-88 running through in ears WITH his own mix? How expensive would this be? And what would I need to get? Also, how would I translate this to any not-so-savy sound guys in the smaller clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 It would require a mixer that was able to give separate monitor mixes... and then you could just input the click track as one of the inputs on the mixer, and send a separate monitor SEND that included the click track to the drummer... (this might be the only thing that the click track is sent to...)... but now you are sending a much more complicated mix to the in ears buds, and you must be certain to avoid sending too loud of a signal to them or you will ruin the guy's hearing, and you MUST insure that some sort of proper limiting is in place. Whether this could reliably be done at various venues, with various systems, and various sound techs is doubtful however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GregHENDRICK Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 So, theoretically, we'd replace the wedge by the drummer with earbuds/in ears? How would that work? I'm trying to make this something that, no matter where we go, it's a simple issue of hooking it up. And could we have our own limiter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members prosigna Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 And could we have our own limiter? This makes it more complicated. You could buy a cheap comp/limiter and use it for just the signals going to the headphone amp. http://www.rolls.com/new/pm50.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gregidon Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Prosigna, I'm not trying to knock your idea, however, the rolls amp doesn't have any limiting built in which should scare most people out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 "where" is right...you will need to get IEM's for this to work right. No matter what sort of earbuds you use, a drummer will have a hell of a time hearing external wedges and the earbud click at the same time. It's tough enough adjusting levels at the drum position without adding a third sound source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 The protection to your hearing an IEM system offers is invaluable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 As long as you don't continue to move the volume knob clockwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members prosigna Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Prosigna, I'm not trying to knock your idea, however, the rolls amp doesn't have any limiting built in which should scare most people out there. I completely agree with you but.... I have worked with many churches and bands on a budget using this very system. If the volume levels are reasonable the limiter is not a deal breaker. I use a similar setup when playing bass on Sunday mornings. My volume know is not turned up to a comfortable listening level, it is turned up just high enough to get the job done. Even when large "pops" have occured the volume level is low enough to be far from hearing damage levels. Most of the hearing damage done by IEM devices have been done by turning them up too loud and not because of lack of limiter protection. IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 I completely agree with you but....I have worked with many churches and bands on a budget using this very system. If the volume levels are reasonable the limiter is not a deal breaker. I use a similar setup when playing bass on Sunday mornings. My volume know is not turned up to a comfortable listening level, it is turned up just high enough to get the job done. Even when large "pops" have occured the volume level is low enough to be far from hearing damage levels.Most of the hearing damage done by IEM devices have been done by turning them up too loud and not because of lack of limiter protection. IMO. If you've got live source into non-limited IEM's, this is indeed a deal-breaker. I'd even be nervous if only the recorded click track was the only thing in the IEM's, but adding live source is a definite no-no. Just one good blast of feedback into an IEM is more than enough to permanently damage hearing. You get but one set of ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 So, the bottom line.... this is harder than it looks, (and more expensive). Whatever you do, ANY TIME you are using earbuds... you MUST have good quality limiting protection, or you are really playing Russian Roulette with your hearing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GregHENDRICK Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 So, lets say we get a Rolls-50, but put some kind of limiter in front of the earbuds. Would that do the trick? I'm thinking that he'd appreciate having his moniter coming through the buds WITH the click, rather than trying to hear the click and the mix, coming from different sources. If that sounds like the plan, what kind of limiter should I get? Keep in mind, it'd be nice to have something that can sit next to him, with the Rolls & his click. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members prosigna Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 I think any Comp/Limiter would work fine. A cheap Behringer Comp/Limiter would give you two channels. You could set it right next to the drummer. Drummer is always in control. That is how I would do it on the cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GregHENDRICK Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 This is going to make me sound stupid, but before I invest, I must question away, haha. What would be the ideal chain in which to set it up, that would make it easy for our drummer, but especially for the sound guy, to feed his mix & click into the earbuds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 This is going to make me sound stupid, but before I invest, I must question away, haha.What would be the ideal chain in which to set it up, that would make it easy for our drummer, but especially for the sound guy, to feed his mix & click into the earbuds? I'd put the click on a mixer channel, and send it only to whatever monitor send is being used for the drummer's monitor. Considering the cost involved in getting a cheap comp/lim, and a headphone amp, I would bite the bullet and get a Shure PSM200 wired beltpack. $329 includes a set of E-2 buds. So much simpler to deal with. Just plug in, adjust volume, and off you go. Is compatible without mod for the PSM-200 wireless system in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GregHENDRICK Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Yeah, but would a drummer really need a wireless? We're not planning on any Tommy Lee-style antics (i.e. putting him in a gyrating box). So, running the click through the mixer would be easier than just having the mix coming through, and as it passes through the Rolls, just have the click added in the Rolls, so he can adjust the volume? Or would it be too hard to get enough volume without it going through the mixer? These are great solutions, by the way, thank you guys. And are the E-2's enough to handle everything? Is that the standard these days? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gregidon Posted February 8, 2007 Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 Yeah, but would a drummer really need a wireless? We're not planning on any Tommy Lee-style antics (i.e. putting him in a gyrating box).So, running the click through the mixer would be easier than just having the mix coming through, and as it passes through the Rolls, just have the click added in the Rolls, so he can adjust the volume? Or would it be too hard to get enough volume without it going through the mixer?These are great solutions, by the way, thank you guys. And are the E-2's enough to handle everything? Is that the standard these days? Look, there is a right way to do this and a half ass-scary-dangerous way to do it. I've done both and have been lucky. The right way is to buy a PSM200 wired unit (yes it can be wireless with the addition of the base station, but you can buy the wired unit and simply run a cable to it) Here. The right way to do this is to use an aux from the soundboard and mix it for the drummer, though there are other options, a small mixer for the drummer to use to add the click. The bottom line is that not having that limiter is down right dangerous. This is another case of, well it's never been a problem for me.... so it won't be for you. Like was mentioned above, with IEM a good solid shot of feedback, or an exceptionally loud pop (stuff fails occasionally) can PERMINENTLY cripple your hearing. Don't mess around with this. Spend the extra $100 and be safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 8, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 Yeah, but would a drummer really need a wireless? We're not planning on any Tommy Lee-style antics (i.e. putting him in a gyrating box).So, running the click through the mixer would be easier than just having the mix coming through, and as it passes through the Rolls, just have the click added in the Rolls, so he can adjust the volume? Or would it be too hard to get enough volume without it going through the mixer?These are great solutions, by the way, thank you guys. And are the E-2's enough to handle everything? Is that the standard these days? I said it could be used wired, or later if you go wireless, it works that way too. I would use a mixer channel for the click. It can be done easily, and it makes everything controllable without problems. Using the IEM removes a lot of complexity, has built in limiting, takes up almost zero room. Yes, it costs more, but you buy once, cry once, and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members prosigna Posted February 8, 2007 Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/church_talk/floor/fm2.php This is a link to an article on PSW about different IEM options (including the PM50 w/outboard comp/limiter) The cheaper lines coming out from the IEM companies are to directly combat the use of this amp. It is widely used and not just the experience of one guy who got lucky. There were many companies selling SKB gig rif unite with a MixWiz, some comp/limiters, and rolls headphone amps. They were turn key 6-Mix monitor rigs for under 2-grand. It can be done, it can be done in a professional fashion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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