Members boleiro Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 anyone know of any resources or have personal experience on some good stage setups for a band? I am talking of where to position amps and such to get a good balanced sound for small bars and clubs. some obvious questions you might have i will try to answer now. We have two guitars, rhythm and lead, drums, keyboards/bass. no P.A. and can't afford one right now. I know that in the few shows we have played so far, its just too hard to hear what you are doing in relation to everyone else. so everyone keeps inching up their volumes till its a mess. any secrets for a band on a budget? any info is welcomed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Carey D Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 I am talking of where to position amps and such to get a good balanced sound for small bars and clubs. We have two guitars, rhythm and lead, drums, keyboards/bass. no P.A. and can't afford one right now. I know that in the few shows we have played so far, its just too hard to hear what you are doing in relation to everyone else. so everyone keeps inching up their volumes till its a mess. No vocals? What type of music do you play? In small rooms the starting point in setting levels is often the drums. Without a PA it may help to get a heavy handed drummer to play a bit quieter... but it depends on what is right for the music. Next, consider the position of the guitar and bass amps. In your situation it is important that the musicians can hear what they are playing well enough that they do not turn up too loud and blast the audience. For example, a guitarist turns his amp up because he can't hear himself. The amp is on the floor throwing the sound past his legs into the crowd. He may make it louder but he will not hear the tone correctly. Instead it will sound mushy to him while it may be shrill and harsh to the listeners. Raise the amp up or tilt it back so its speaker faces the guitarist and the other musicians. Perhaps placed on a bar stool and angled in to the band would work. The same applies to the keyboard amp and a smaller bass amp, although a loud bass is usually less of a problem than loud guitars. I may be wrong, but if you have no vocals my guess is that the keyboard is taking the lead much of the time. It may help to get a couple small speakers as 'hotspot' monitors fed from the keyboard amp to put near the drummer and far side guitarist. It is often a difficult compromise between getting the sound right for the musicians and getting it right for the audience. If taming your levels and repositioning the amps does not help then getting a small PA may be a very worthwhile investment. Perhaps you can enlist some help from another band or someone who knows a bit more about PA. If you have some more detail or want to explore this further here fire away... Good luck, Carey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Lose the amplifiers and go acoustic and get your drummer bongo's and a tambourine. Basically you'll do like Collective Soul did in the middle east tour no amps,everything acoustic and they still kicked ass. good luck and peace out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members joel77 Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 ......so everyone keeps inching up their volumes till its a mess. any secrets for a band on a budget? any info is welcomed. Boleiro, That, right there, is one of THEE most frustrating aspects of running sound. Especially in smaller rooms. As Carey D mentioned, start with the drummer. If the drummer won't/can't play to fit the room, you're in a losing battle. Setting amps off to the side to shoot across the stage is another option to tipping them up. This can help in two ways; (1) keep some of the sound away from the audience and (2) help the band hear each other. I my experience, if the band members can't understand this, or just plain refuse to cooperate, you may as well go bang your head against a wall! You'll never get the levels set properly before blowing out the windows. Keep trying! Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boleiro Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 yeah, we have vocals. i just didn't mention it since those will be going through the house p.a. so do we still start with the drummer then? thanks for the info. turning the amps in a little towards the stage as opposed to straight out sounds like a good idea. however, will that still get out to the audience just as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boleiro Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 forgot to mention, we play 60's psychadelic with a lot of reverb. lots of reverb. i like to get loud too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Biggest problem in the rookie sound stage is everybody drowns out the poor singer and it causes the singer to stretch out the vocal chords and he or she has to start screaming just to be heard after awhile poor vocal chords are stretch so far out that the singer can even talk anymore. I know I lost my vocal chords and their stretch so far beyond repair even a surgery won't help because of the years of abuse I put on them and took it's toll. I wish they would write this in stone your stage volume got to be underneath the vocals if not why even bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ckcondon Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 So what kind of house PA? No monitors? If none, your singer will probably lose their voice in 2 songs! How do you rehearse? I agree that the drummer needs to be dynamic enough not to overpower everyone, but everyone needs to show restraint. I know my guitarist LOVES to crank his Marshall to "11" but that doesn't serve the band. We ain't playing an arena guys!A problem I have run into is that as the drummer, I used to have a hard time hearing low-stage volume over my drums. It's not that I'm that loud, it's just that I'm closer to the snare and cymbals than the other instruments. Makes it hard to hear details. Now I have in-ear monitors and that solves the problem.With the amps angled in a bit, there will still be "wash" that carries off the stage. The key is having it blend with what's coming through the house system. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 So what kind of house PA? No monitors? If none, your singer will probably lose their voice in 2 songs! How do you rehearse?I agree that the drummer needs to be dynamic enough not to overpower everyone, but everyone needs to show restraint. I know my guitarist LOVES to crank his Marshall to "11" but that doesn't serve the band. We ain't playing an arena guys!A problem I have run into is that as the drummer, I used to have a hard time hearing low-stage volume over my drums. It's not that I'm that loud, it's just that I'm closer to the snare and cymbals than the other instruments. Makes it hard to hear details. Now I have in-ear monitors and that solves the problem.With the amps angled in a bit, there will still be "wash" that carries off the stage. The key is having it blend with what's coming through the house system.Chris Three words Roland V Drums solves your wash out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ckcondon Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 I have e-drums that I use for practice, but I prefer to play my acoustics live.I play with good dynamics and we have always gotten compliments on our sound. I run the FOH from the stage, and we are conscious of our overall volume. I just personally prefer the in-ears because they're lighter than lugging another wedge/amp! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 forgot to mention, we play 60's psychadelic with a lot of reverb. lots of reverb. i like to get loud too. Sidefill your onstage amps and get them up in the air a bit so that you can all hear each other. Its pretty basic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boleiro Posted February 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 yeah, i am going to try elevating them a bit and tilting my twin with the legs. funny, have had that amp for almost 10 years and never used those things. as for the "sidefill," do you mean putting all amps at either side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mogwix Posted February 8, 2007 Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 When we've got no PA support save for vocals, generally I'll put the amps slightly behind the drummer, pointing towards him so their projection criss-cross. ie: the guitar amp is pointing at me (bassist) from behind him and my bass amp is pointing at the guitarist. Also, since the amps are behind the drummer he can hear 'em as well. I'll then stand in the audience (I've got a wireless unit) and we'll play a song or two. I'll tell my singer to turn my bass amp or the guitar amp up/down to even them out with the drums. After the initial soundcheck nobody touches ANYTHING. My guitarist is really good with staying away from the volume knob which I thank him for, because we don't have volume wars on stage. Most often than not though I can't hear the guitarist, guitarist can't hear me, and drummer can't hear anything. We've pretty much accepted that we're never ever going to get a proper stage mix and be able to hear each other so we've pretty much just gotten used to playing completely in the dark. We do a pretty good job of it too. Even in the shows we've done where there were sound techs present to run sound for us, and even when we did get a proper soundcheck, monitor levels were still terrible and we STILL couldn't hear each other. *sigh* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr.Talent Posted February 8, 2007 Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 raising and or tilting the amps... or the sidefill (aiming the amps across the stage) technique may help a bit.... but if there is a house PA with enough channels+ monitor mixes- mic everything and let the sound engineer make you loud- that's what he is there for... mic the drums (at least kick, snare, and hat), DI the Bass and keys, mic the guitar amps... have the eng put some stuff back into the monitor wedges besides vocals (it doesn't have to be alot-just in your face)- depending on how many seperate mixes (some of you may have to share a mix) With the overall stage volume down- the sound engineer can give you what you want to hear in your monitors, usually with no problem... without killing the audience.. plus you get a nicer sound at the FOH when everything is mic'd, even in smaller clubs. As a sound eng- its a real pain to mix around that loud guitar that won't turn down- people will bitch and I say "he's not even in the mix" Let the soundguy "mix"- he'll make you plenty loud if you let him! Ask how many monitor mixes are available and make the most of it. If that doesn't compute, pass out earplugs for everyone at the door Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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