Members beardog Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Looking for soe advise on buying a PA system for my band. We'll be usingthis PA for basement rehersals as well as small to moderate gigs. I'm curious as to how many watts (max) would be required to get the vocals up over the drums, Bass, and 2 guitars. In our practice space we currently run the vocals through a Peavey KB100 and it's acceptable for practice but certainly can't handle a gig. Also, what size speakers should I be looking for. I will most likely buy used and any advise you can give me I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Need to know - budget? type of music? what is condsidered small? what is considered moderate? how much you planning on making per gig? how many times a month you plan on playing for pay? (is this a once every other month hobby? an every weekend thing? a full time ambition?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beardog Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Looking to keep the budget under $500 if possible. The 2 rooms we're looking at playing the most hold 100 people and 250 people. We play classic, pop, and folkish rock music. No metal and not too loud. I play through a classic 30 with a 2x12 cab and the volume set between 4-5 tops on most occassions if that helps. And the drums are not mic'd. This is primarily a for fun, but there will be some money involved. Thinking of playing out about 5-6 times per year, but it seems foolish to pay $100 each time we need to rent a PA. Plus the Peavey KB100 is really being pushed to it's limits when more than one mic is plugged in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Looking to keep the budget under $500 if possible.....Thinking of playing out about 5-6 times per year, but it seems foolish to pay $100 each time we need to rent a PA. That really depends on what you can rent for $100 versus what you can own for $500. $500 gets you a couple of ho-hum speakers OR a fairly OK powered mixer. Honestly, for your budget you really only have 2 choices. 1 - USED 2 - Behringer, Nady, Phonic, and other bottom of the barrel brands My 2 cents is rent for a few months while you: A) save some more scratch B) Keep a keen eye on the used market in your area (craigslist, classifieds on music websites, second hand stores, pawn shops, etc). You pick up a nice used Peavey powered mixer and you can just rent the speakers next time. Pick up speakers 2 months later, then you don't have to rent anymore. Fantastic way not to take a bath on new gear. If you outgrow the PA or dissolve the band, you'll likely get near what you paid for the stuff, and sometimes will even turn a profit. With new you'll lose 25% - 40% pretty much from the get go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beardog Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 I would rather go used, but have no idea what to look for. There's a Daddy's Junkie Music near me that has plenty of used items in it's inventory, but I don't know what I need. I don't want to get something and find out it's too weak of a system, but at the same time I don't want to over pay for more than we'll need. Hope that makes sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Sorry to bust your bubble lots of folks come here wanting to buy a PA rig that can handle a crowd of 200-500 people and have a tiny budget. Biggest thing I see is that a lot of these folks have invested thousands of dollars in their backline gear (guitar,amps ,drums) and cheap out on the PA system I know first hand. I cheaped out on my first PA rig, like took me forever to get rid of it and sounded awful I spent thousands on my backline gear with half stacks and drums and a bass stack and my old PA system Even pushed to to the max just couldn't keep up with the backline gear. I agree 100% with Absurd you need to evaluate the cost factor against the income brought in by gigs. Sometimes it's easier to rent and have a dedicated Soundguy that can enhance your bands sound and which in most cases people always remember a good sounding band vs a band that has a cheap bad sounding PA they'll remember the bad sound as well and more and likely won't be re-booked. Do what you will good luck and peace out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 I would rather go used, but have no idea what to look for.There's a Daddy's Junkie Music near me that has plenty of used items in it's inventory, but I don't know what I need. I don't want to get something and find out it's too weak of a system, but at the same time I don't want to over pay for more than we'll need.Hope that makes sense. Go to the store and see what they have. Bring pen and paper and write down model numbers. Then come back and ask. Can also look at fair market value on ebay. This can help in negotiation if you want to buy something. That said, I've seen things go for more than they should on ebay sometimes. In a nutshell, for your budget, even used, you're looking at: - pair of speaker stands - pair of 12" or 15" mains 250RMS/500program with compression horns (no piezo's for the high end) - powered mixer - the more channels the better, 300W or more PER CHANNEL at 4 ohms. 400+ W per channel at 4 ohms ideally. This means each speaker gets 200W. Stereo (meaning 2 amps built in) will be helpful as you can use 1 of the amps for monitors, should you get some .... and you should. There are plenty of Peavey powered mixers out there that will fill the order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Also Abzurd audio page has a direct link to eBay for used gear very helpful plus a lot of other cool info. about SR. Good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Singin' Dave Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Great, solid and spot on advice from Abzurd. I commend him for trying to help the poster within his budget and specs rather than trying to convince him he is without hope. To the OP, within your budget, A used powered mixer and a couple used pole mountable monitor wedges should serve you nicely for the short term and will obviously be a LARGE step up from the KB100. Wedges (vs. straight box shaped speakers) are more versatile later - you may add better speakers later and can move them to floor wedges. You need to factor in stands and cabling as well. (not to mention mics) I don't know where you live, so I'm not sure if there is a decent craislist community aroud you. If your in or near a major metropolitan US city, craigslist is your friend. If not, local used deals tend to be best if they can be found. PA speakers typically do not sell on craigslist/locally for very much - thus you've already faded the depreciation. Heed all of Abzurd's advice on power specs/channels etc for your purchased mixer and speakers. Buy brands that will last (Peavey, Yamaha, Yorkville etc.) and rock on! Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beardog Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 We've rented twice before once was a 200 watt Yamaha powered mixer that worked well, and the other was a peavey but not sure how strong may have been 400 watts, but didn't seem any better or worse than the yamaha. We also rented 2 Peavey SP-5's. I've seen a few sets of used SP-2's for short money. Under $150 each. Would those be acceptable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 7, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 7, 2007 We've rented twice before once was a 200 watt Yamaha powered mixer that worked well, and the other was a peavey but not sure how strong may have been 400 watts, but didn't seem any better or worse than the yamaha. We also rented 2 Peavey SP-5's. I've seen a few sets of used SP-2's for short money. Under $150 each. Would those be acceptable? If you can score working SP-2's for that, go for it! Those are good speakers, real workhorses that can be kept running seemingly indefinitely. They're a step up from the SP-5's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Roberts Posted February 7, 2007 Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 Keep in mind that you don't have to buy the whole PA system at one time. If you only have enough money for a powered head or a set of speakers and see a good deal, then just buy that and keep saving till you can afford another piece of gear. Remember, you didn't buy all the guitars, efx and amps you own at the same time either. Patience... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beardog Posted February 7, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 7, 2007 If you can score working SP-2's for that, go for it! Those are good speakers, real workhorses that can be kept running seemingly indefinitely. They're a step up from the SP-5's. I was informed at a music store that SP-2's might be a little more than I would need, and a lot larger too. They were also in rough shape cosmeticly which doesn't matter much to me, but if they are that rough on the outside there's no telling how they may have been mistreated over the years. Here is what the sales man recomended and I actually trust him as they know me from years of buying my gear there. I put the following on a refundable layaway until they have can have them delivered to the store: (1) Peavey XR600c (powered mixer) good condition $165 (2) Peavey PR-15 (speakers) good condition $145 (each) (2) Peavey PR-12 (speakers) very good condition $120 (each) Please let me know your thoughts. And thank you to everyone for quick and insightful input. It's certainly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted February 8, 2007 Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 IF it were me I would go with the PR 12's. What are you using for mic.'s? My biggest concern is getting the vocals above your guitar amp, set at 5 going through a 2 -12 cabinet. You almost have enough money left over for a third PR12 for a least one Monitor, also the Peavey PW. mixer is a good choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 8, 2007 Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 Pass on the powered mixer. It's 210W at 4 ohms and mono. That means you're getting 105W to each speaker. Perhaps adequate for practice, but not really gig worthy, IMO. You also have no monitoring capabilities. The PR12 speakers sell for $170 new (and that's for the "N" version which use neo magnets and weigh 30 lbs). So, if they're "like new", then $129 isn't bad price. I'd personally hold out for a better cabinet, but you could do worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beardog Posted February 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 I thought the mixer was 400 watts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 8, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 I thought the mixer was 400 watts? It is. 400w @ 4ohms. Two 8 ohm speakers will be a 4 ohm load. Each speaker will get 200w. While this is a respectable powered mixer (they're almost bulletproof), an XR600c is really old (the series is up to XR600G now) and as abzurd states, its mono, so you have no options to power monitors unless you go with a separate power amp or use powered wedges. This kinda negates any convenience offered by the powered mixer format, and is why I usually try to get folks away from powered mixers and towards a racked separates rig, or to powered speakers. For lower budgets, powered speakers are the most bang for the buck while still offering great sound...well-matched amps that are bi-amped is nearly impossible at entry level prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 8, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 I was informed at a music store that SP-2's might be a little more than I would need, and a lot larger too. They were also in rough shape cosmeticly which doesn't matter much to me, but if they are that rough on the outside there's no telling how they may have been mistreated over the years. All used speakers are a risk. Outside appearance means nothing though...I have JBL SR-X that are a good thou apiece, and they look perfect. One good runaway feedback situation though, and I've got 4 really good-looking boxes that are toast, or a hour or less away from being toast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beardog Posted February 8, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 So it sounds like the speaker options I presented will do the trick. At what point did the XR600 come with the option of adding a monitor. The store has access to alot of differnt XR600's. Obviously priced differently but I could probably work something out with them. What about a Peaver XR560? Is that better or worse? Again I can't thank you guys enough for all your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 8, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 So it sounds like the speaker options I presented will do the trick. At what point did the XR600 come with the option of adding a monitor. The store has access to alot of differnt XR600's. Obviously priced differently but I could probably work something out with them.What about a Peaver XR560? Is that better or worse?Again I can't thank you guys enough for all your help. Good question...the 600C appears to have one 400w amp, the 600G has two 200w amps. Hmmm..... I seem to recall one of the Peavey guys (dboomer or SoundMan) advising against possibly the XR560 stating they had somewhat lower reliability. I'm not certain this was the model though. Maybe one of them could chime in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted February 8, 2007 Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 Where are you guys seeing this 400W at 4 ohms? Everything I've read is it's 210W @ 4 ohms, and 400 at 2 ohms. So effectively it's100ish per, 8 ohm speaker cabinet. Not enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 8, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 8, 2007 Where are you guys seeing this 400W at 4 ohms? Everything I've read is it's 210W @ 4 ohms, and 400 at 2 ohms. So effectively it's100ish per, 8 ohm speaker cabinet. Not enough Ignore me. Your info is correct. First I saw an XR600c ad that showed a different model so I thought the older ones had one amp. Then I saw an XR600G ad that showed "400w @ 4 ohms". When it was questioned, I looked again, and saw the 200w X2 @4ohms. So my info os all over the map. *goes out back, shoots self in head* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Singin' Dave Posted February 8, 2007 Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 Where are you guys seeing this 400W at 4 ohms? Everything I've read is it's 210W @ 4 ohms, and 400 at 2 ohms. So effectively it's100ish per, 8 ohm speaker cabinet. Not enough Yep. Many moons ago, I owned this mixer. That's my impression as well - 210W @ 4ohms. 2 8ohm speakers hooked up to that mixer = ~105W to each speaker (@ 4 ohms in parallel). At $165 it's not a bad deal, but it's really not what you are looking for for a gigging solution. Whether or not this is enough power is debatable,but I would argue you are running short of headroom for anything larger than a rehearsal room. And the bigger concern is the fact that it has only one internal amp. No monitors can be driven by this thing (ulnless you are daisy chaining 4 speakers, thus running at a 2 ohm load - not good for that amp) Your need to 1) raise up your budget to ~700 so you can get a decent ~$300 used dual amp powered mixer or 2) buy in pieces as suggested by Al earlier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stingray5 Posted February 8, 2007 Members Share Posted February 8, 2007 The XR600c was a popular mixer around these parts for a good while, classic rock, and blues bands mostly. It's not the state of the art, but a work horse for a lot of us guys back when. Bottom line no matter what you buy at this juncition, you will want somthing else later, especially at the price point that your at now. Even if you spent twice the amount you set your budget at, your not going to set any db record levels. Maybe you can ask, if you could try the system out before you buy it, since you know the guy fairly well. Since I'm on a roll here, I might as well add, at Musiciansfriend, they have a refurbished Beringer powered mixer, for $206.00, you might want to take a look at. I know people on this fourm, hate Beringer, but I have heard a few of them in my opinion there ok. I almost spent $200.00 taking the wife, son and daughter-in-law, out to dinner last week. So at least you have somthing to show for your money, instead of Garlic breath for two days like we did! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members les_rokr Posted February 10, 2007 Members Share Posted February 10, 2007 speaker size= 15" or bigger. Since you probably already have 10's on your 100 watt set. Buy two 15's, and hook em up to whatever PA you end up buying along with the 10's. Just use a splitter. works fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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