Members paulwannabe Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 Ok, I got this mixer used on ebay for about $500 bucks, and it sucks. Right now, my main setup consists of all Yamaha gear. I have an MG series mixer, and Yamaha Club series mains and subs running off one Yamaha amp. I have some cheap Kustom monitors, but I needed something decent to power them with other than my cheap Kustom powered mixer. Therefore, I bought the Mackie mixer, which has 2 internal amps so that I could use it to power the monitors when I use the full setup, or I could use it alone to power the 15" mains and the monitors when I didn't need the subwoofers. At any rate, this thing is a feedback machine, and it doesn't even sound that good, at least not compared to my Yamaha gear. I really expected more from Mackie----does anyone else have experience with this mixer? Are they all this bad, or did I just get a dud? Maybe I should just buy another Yamaha amp............I just hate to lug around that heavy rack case all the time. If anybody has any advice/suggestions, I'm all ears. I'm eventually going to need to get some decent monitors, too. What should I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sharnrock Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 Your mixer doesn't really have anything to do with feedback. Mic placement and EQ are the most important things. Make sure you're also sending line level to your other powered mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members les_rokr Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 maybe you should try the Mackie 1202-vlz micro mixer. I've used it, and it's got great reviews on MF. Peavy SP 12" monitors? Try it. *sigh*here comes the horse to mock me about monitors again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 maybe you should try the Mackie 1202-vlz micro mixer. I've used it, and it's got great reviews on MF. Peavy SP 12" monitors? Try it. *sigh* here comes the horse to mock me about monitors again... Yup, you got it my friend. Read the post before giving an answer that has no bearing on the problem. As great as the 1202VLZ might be, how would you propose powering the monitors with it? It has NO poweramp He's already got a mixer (Yamaha MG series) so he doesn't need another, he was hoping to use the power amp in the 802 to power the monitors. Now, on to an answer that may help the OP. First, are you sending the output of your MG mixer's pre fader aux out(s) to the graphic eq in on the 802 or a channel's line input? Start out with all eq's set flat (in the middle) and slowly increase the levels to a moderate volume. Does it sound ok, reasonable natural? If not, you may be suffering from the serious limitations the Kustom speakers may be presenting. There are much better choices that will improve performance a lot. You might even try comparing to your Club series mains (in place of the Kustoms) to compare and see if the speakers are the problem. The rest is learning how to eq your monitor sends (on the 802's eq's that are in the signal path) and then keeping the overall volume down to reflect the limitations of the speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 Maybe I should just buy another Yamaha amp............I just hate to lug around that heavy rack case all the time. Well... maybe not to the point of the thread, but... It's my belief that if the tool for the job is the right tool for the job, I'll figure out how to deal with it's mass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members les_rokr Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 I'am not familar with the "Yamaha MG series." I assumed it was an unpowered amp. Didn't know it was powered. geez Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TexasJim Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 paulw: It's possibly you. I've been using my 808S since they came out, about six years, and the only time I've ever had feedback was when I or my band did something wrong. It certainly wasn't anything with the Mackie. We run a five-piece country band with mine. It's never thermalled out, which is the main bitch about the 808S. It's PLENTY loud. I've never run it over 50% gain, and I'm asked to turn down often. My dobro player has been the main offender in the feedback area. Look at your setup. Are the monitors mis-placed? Where are the mains relative to the mics? What kind of mics are you using? There is probably a reason you're having trouble, one that can be easily fixed. Good luck: Texas Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 I'am not familar with the "Yamaha MG series." I assumed it was an unpowered amp. Didn't know it was powered. geez Andy. That's why it pays to have experience. A suggestion here is to search for the pieces of gear mentioned so that you can see what's being discussed. That way you can learn more about it and how it works. The internet is a wonderful tool, easy access to manufacturert information. Unfortunately, there's alos a lot of bad and wrong information via forums and personal websites, so reading between the limnes comes from experience. If you plan to give advice, you need a little more experience, which you will develop with time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 That's why it pays to have experience. A suggestion here is to search for the pieces of gear mentioned so that you can see what's being discussed. That way you can learn more about it and how it works.The internet is a wonderful tool, easy access to manufacturert information. Unfortunately, there's alos a lot of bad and wrong information via forums and personal websites, so reading between the limnes comes from experience.If you plan to give advice, you need a little more experience, which you will develop with time. I have a Mackie 808M in my practice room and it's far from a piece of junk. It's worked just fine for about 10 years. Now...if I had to do it all over again, I'd probably get a Peavey Powered Mixer (probably used) instead given what I paid for the Mackie new...but it's been a good unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremendo Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 The Mackie 808S should be fine, I bought one years ago, no major problems. However, what "cheap Kustom monitors" are you talking about? Do you mean the 10" ones from Musician's Friend? If that's the case, NO mixer or amp will help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members paulwannabe Posted February 11, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 Ok, first of all, thanks for all the feedback. I appreciate the help. Yes, I am using the dreaded 10" Kustom floor monitors from Musician's Friend. However, I have tried substituting my Yamaha Club speakers for testing purposes, and I get the same result. Texas Jim, I've done everything that I know to do. This unit does okay when I use it to power the mains, but that's because the mains are stacked several feet away at the front of the stage facing away from all of the microphones. When I use the 808S to power the monitors, I get feedback. I'm using NADY dynamic mics, which are inexpensive, but I've tested the sytem with a Sure dynamic mic and still get feedback. The monitors are to the left and right of the stage, angled in towards the band. This unit is powerful, but when I'm running microphones I can't get enough volume to be heard over the drums without getting feedback. Aged horse, I've been doing it just as you said. I run a guitar cable from the pre-fader aux send on the MG mixer to one of the channel inputs on the 808S. This leaves me with 3-band EQ for the channel that I plug in to, plus the master EQ. I start with everything set to flat, and increase the volume slowly until feedback starts, and then adjust the EQ accordingly. The end result is that I still end up with less than adequate volume, and a really crappy sound because the EQ is so notched down. For testing purposes, I have just been running a microphone directly into one of the channel inputs, since I need to be able to use this PA head alone for small gigs. I've tried it this way with the Yamaha Clubs, and feedback results before I can get close to the necessary volume. When I use my Yamaha rack gear and speakers, I have to put a microphone directly in front of the speaker to create feedback. I can create painfully loud volume without feedback, even in pretty small rooms. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that the speakers are not the problem. Some of the potentiometers on the Mackie head are scratchy, and the guy I bought it from said they need to be cleaned. Would this have any effect on the feedback situation? If so, I'll try replacing them. Is there anything else that might help? I'm running out of ideas, and losing hope fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremendo Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 Yes, I am using the dreaded 10" Kustom floor monitors from Musician's Friend. However, I have tried substituting my Yamaha Club speakers for testing purposes, and I get the same result. I have an 808S and 4 of those 10" Kustom monitors (a moment of weakness and idiocy on my part). The speakers are total crap and will feedback any time you try to get any volume through them. I tried to use 4 as monitors, powering them from the 808S, so I am VERY familiar with this. I also have 2 JBL SF15's, very similar to the Yamaha Club 15" and have used them through the Mackie as well, with good results. The Kustom 10" speakers may fool you to think they will work well, but in a band situation they won't. Nasty treble coming through until they feed back. Using SM58's, Beta58's, etc, it just doesn't matter. Add in that the Mackie really does not like to run 2 ohms (4 8 ohm speakers), and if you do have to, make sure you have 14 guage or better cables, preferably short as well. Your Mackie may have a problem, but don't use the Kustom's to find it. JMHO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sharnrock Posted February 11, 2007 Members Share Posted February 11, 2007 The monitors are to the left and right of the stage, angled in towards the band. This unit is powerful, but when I'm running microphones I can't get enough volume to be heard over the drums without getting feedback. That is probably your problem right there. Try putting the monitors about 3 feet in front of your mic stand, with the back of the mic pointing directly at the monitor. Don't forget to turn down the offending frequency on your eq when you get feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted February 12, 2007 Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 Let me summarize: You have Kustom 10" monitors with Nady mics and a Mackie powered mixer in the middle. I doubt the problem lies in the Mackie. I'm sure those Kustom monitors have frequecy peaks that, without eq'ing, are prone to feedback. Overlay on top of that, freq peaks introduced by the Nady mics and your have a formula for feedback. Mic vs. monitor location is crucial as, I'm sure you understand, feedback is a problem arising from the output looping back into the input. The trick to minimizing feedback is first having a system that is fairly flat. By that, I mean there are no exagerated freq. peaks; these peaks will be the first freq's to feedback when you try to boast overall volume. In trying to achieve this desirable system, note that all gear is not created equal and certain speakers and mics are more "flat" and have more desirable pickup patterns and other parameters that effect gain before feedback performance. Next you want to make sure your performance/practice space is most desirable. You must insure that your monitors are at an optimal position so as to not introduce the output of these speaker as input to your mics. Moving speakers around can make a big differance. Also very important is the general accoustic makeup of the room in which you are performing/practicing. For instance tile floors and paneled/glossy painted walls and ceiling create for a very reverberant space. Sound bounces about the room and invariably bounces back into your mic introducing feedback. So, carpet, drapes, blankets, bookshelves and generally stuff in room helps it to be less reverberant. If the wall behind your mic is a hard, shiney, reverberant surface, hand a blanket/comforter to cut down on reflections. If the floor is tiled or wood, get some cheap carpet remnants that can be put down and removed later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 I've mentioned this several times in the past, and most recently a day or so ago....I had the misfortune of trying to get those 10" Kustom wedges to work, and they are awful. I suspect the best thing to get them to stop feeding back (other than not using them, which was our tactic), would be to disconnect the piezo tweeter. If you've got the same problem with the Yamaha's, consider whether you're trying to get too much gain in the first place. There's only so much you can do with EQ and mic placement...first make sure you are doing as much as possible, then accept the level you get out of them. If it's not enough to hear, consider whether your stage backline volume is excessive. Or get your hearing checked;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarharv52 Posted February 12, 2007 Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 Craig, when you changed to the new moniker did you say mmmmmm......purple? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted February 12, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted February 12, 2007 Craig, when you changed to the new moniker did you saymmmmmm......purple? Caddy: Yes, I think you should try an open-faced club...a sand wedge. Homer (drooling): Open-faced-club-sandwich.....MMmmmmm....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarharv52 Posted February 12, 2007 Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 Caddy: Yes, I think you should try an open-faced club...a sand wedge. Homer (drooling): Open-faced-club-sandwich.....MMmmmmm....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted February 12, 2007 Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 i used to use an 808 for years, and after I upgraded to a larger system I used the Mackie to power the monitors. Two of those cheap 10" Kustoms pointed in from the sides and two peaveys in the back. Never had feedback issues that weren't caused by humans. placement is key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremendo Posted February 12, 2007 Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 i used to use an 808 for years, and after I upgraded to a larger system I used the Mackie to power the monitors. Two of those cheap 10" Kustoms pointed in from the sides and two peaveys in the back. Never had feedback issues that weren't caused by humans. placement is key. In all seriousness, what kind of music and band did you have that the 10" Kustoms worked as monitors? Those piezos are so cheap and nasty sounding with live music, if you're a rock or rockish band, unless your stage volume is below extremely low, I don't understand how they could have worked for you as monitors. I'd be interested to hear your experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members paulwannabe Posted February 12, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 "That is probably your problem right there. Try putting the monitors about 3 feet in front of your mic stand, with the back of the mic pointing directly at the monitor. Don't forget to turn down the offending frequency on your eq when you get feedback." --Thanks, sharnrock. I tried this method and I am able to get more gain before feedback. I still don't know if it will be enough to be heard over my ridiculously loud drummer, but it's definitely an improvement. I'm glad to know I'm not the only one that got suckered in to buying the Kustom floor monitors. The price was too irresistable! I'm definitely going to need to upgrade to better monitors. I don't know what it will take for the vocals to be heard over my drummer, though. If I were to buy more power amps and floor monitors, would I be able to increase the volume without increasing the feedback? Wouldn't it make sense that I could max out each amp/monitor setup to the point where I have the highest gain before feedback, and then just have several of these set up? How do the pros do it? My monitors are so sensitive that someone moving around on stage could cause feedback. Yet I watch professional bands like Aerosmith where the singer is dancing all over the stage and sometimes standing directly over the monitors, but no feedback results. How do they do it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted February 12, 2007 Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 Aerosmith is on a huge stage without a wall 5 foot behind and a cieling 7 or 8 feet above. Using monitors that cost 10X as much as what you're using with a 20 year journeyman doing the mix. Describe the room you are in a bit. There may be some things we can suggest to help. Also, try turning down everything else...have the drummer use hot rods instead of sticks.http://www.music123.com/Promark-Hot-Rods-H-RODS-i17011.music Also, (as someone mentioned) disconnecting the piezo tweeter will likely decrease the feedback significantly. It will also take away all the brightness from the sound but it may be a worthwhile tradeoff. For what it's worth, my band practices in a 18 X 12 room in the back of my garage. We have a 6'8" drummer who weighs 325 lbs and does not use hot rods. We are loud in that room! I can get all our vocals above the mix with an 808M and some yamaha club speakers. It's all about speaker placement, eq and having an accoustically desirable room. My practice room is carpeted with accoustic tiled ceilings and auralex foam on the walls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members paulwannabe Posted February 12, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 Aerosmith is on a huge stage without a wall 5 foot behind and a cieling 7 or 8 feet above. Using monitors that cost 10X as much as what you're using with a 20 year journeyman doing the mix.Describe the room you are in a bit. There may be some things we can suggest to help. Also, try turning down everything else...have the drummer use hot rods instead of sticks.http://www.music123.com/Promark-Hot-Rods-H-RODS-i17011.music Also, (as someone mentioned) disconnecting the piezo tweeter will likely decrease the feedback significantly. It will also take away all the brightness from the sound but it may be a worthwhile tradeoff.For what it's worth, my band practices in a 18 X 12 room in the back of my garage. We have a 6'8" drummer who weighs 325 lbs and does not use hot rods. We are loud in that room! I can get all our vocals above the mix with an 808M and some yamaha club speakers. It's all about speaker placement, eq and having an accoustically desirable room. My practice room is carpeted with accoustic tiled ceilings and auralex foam on the walls. Our band's practice room is about the size of a small bedroom, I'd say about 18' x 18'. The ceilings are about 8' high. The floors are carpeted, but there is nothing covering the drywall except for some posters. I have always had serious feedback problems in this room, so I put the monitor in one corner of the room and put a huge piece of cardboard in front of it to reduce sound waves bouncing back. The sound is muffled, and I have to really crank the volume and notch the EQ, but it's the best I could do. Still, I can't be heard over the drums. This is with the cheap Kustom monitors, though. I will probably stand a better chance if I use the Yamahas. In a room this small, though, isn't feedback virtually impossible to eliminate? Our drummer has a pair of hot rods, I just need to make him start using them. I'm the bass player, and I can't hear what notes I'm playing over those cymbals. I can hear something coming out of my bass amp, but I could be off a fret and wouldn't even know it. Are all drummers this loud? He's a really great drummer, too good to pass up, but definitely overpowers everything else. What about my suggestion for having multiple monitor setups? I was thinking of doing this for live shows. Would it work? I'm going to need all the volume I can get out of the vocals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted February 12, 2007 Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 What about my suggestion for having multiple monitor setups? I was thinking of doing this for live shows. Would it work? I'm going to need all the volume I can get out of the vocals. Sure....I use 3 or four monitors live with no problem. A simple fix for your practice situation would be to practice with a headphone mix. Get a decent headphone amp and everyone get a pair of cans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BigSam Posted February 12, 2007 Members Share Posted February 12, 2007 I'm far from an expert at these things but my band was having feedback problems with the monitors and we did two things. 1) Had drummer switch to lighter sticks ( 7a's i think) 2) Had singers actually sing ( projecting their voice and everything ) INTO the microphone while holding the mic near their mouths ( instead of 2 feet away ). These two things allowed us to lower the gain on the mics and thus reduce the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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