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How do YOU audition new speakers?


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So lots of folks here (me included ) are looking for new PA speakers for their bands. Mine is the typical 5 piece dance/top 40/classic rock type, guitar, bass, drums, keys and 4 vocals. In trying to decide Brand X over Brand Y the answer is often "go hear for yourself" which is good advice. Problem is how do you really audition speakers in a music store that will in any way be even close to a full band all mic'ed up shoved in the corner of a bar on some milk crates and plywood behind the pool table????

 

Obviously this cannot be recreated but is listening to CD's really going to tell me how a mic'd kick drum is going to sound or a D.I from a Hartke head?

How do you audition speakers in a store? Do you take a singer in and have them sing? Plug instruments in? Or do you just listen to CD's?

 

One of the reasons I think (at least I do) people constantly ask these questions about Brand X vs. Brand Y is because we don't know that even going in and hearing these sytems is going to give the same kind of real world experience as someone here that owns and uses those speakers every weekend can give.

Thanks,

Nate

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How do you audition speakers in a store?

 

I don't audition speakers in a store, but rather take notes at live performances and I do a fair amount of A-B or A-B-C-D testing here in my shop. My A-B testing usually involves a wide variety of CD's then a mic.

 

Real speaker auditioning at a store is difficult; however, I would think if you're doing more than window shopping, I'd think store management could accomodate some serious auditioning either before or after hours.

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Go see as many live bands as you can and note the gear used. Most soundguys (& soundgals) like to talk gear if they have time.

 

I'm a bit away from any decent selection of speakers to test, even in a big box store. So I partly depend on other's opinions who I've learned to trust over the years, colored by my experience with various brands. Once I find and use a quality product by a given maker, I tend to trust them more to do things right, even unheard. I got into Yorkville Unity & Elite series speakers initially that way and have NOT regreted it.

 

The big problem in asking about comparisions between affordable speakers (or mixers or EQs, ect.) in a given price range is that once you've bought in that price range, unless they totally suck or you blow them up, you keep them or move UP in price and, hopefully, performance. That, and everybody's proud of what they bought because it's usually the most they've ever spent on that type item.

 

Boomer

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Before I bought my SX-500s or my Cerwin Vega sub's I went to my local music store after they make recomendation's on speaker's I went to see local band's using the same speaker's, also saw what they were using as far as power amp's, x-overs, mixer's and I came to the conclusion no matter how good a speaker might be there's always someone who can make them sound like crap. On the other hand there are those few who can take marginal equipment and make it sound pretty good! I run sound from the stage so I want speaker's that are easy to EQ and can handle high SPL levels. Hope this help's;)

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I run sound from the stage so I want speaker's that are easy to EQ and can handle high SPL levels. Hope this help's;)

 

 

 

Dandy Don, this is not aimed at you personally but this situation in general. I don't know you and do not begin to say this applies to you. That said here is what I think about that quote:

 

I think running sound from the stage is an instant handicap. You are never going to sound great in that situation. You may figure out how to sound consistently "OK" and many are happy with that. I have found many people are not comfortable letting someone else run sound. Many are just control freaks. Finding a competent person to ride the faders at FOH will improve sound faster than anything. They do not need to be full fledge "soundmen" who understand how to build and maintain a sound system, they just need to learn to mix in a bar.

 

Just my thoughts.

Carry on.

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It can help to compare the speakers you are interested in buying to something higher up the food chain. There is likely several speaker at the price point you are interested in. Comparing them each in turn to the best speakers the dealer has can tell you which comes closet to the 'ideal". If all the dealer sells are guitar store speakers , this won't work, but if they are really a pro audio dealer they should have some well performing speaker that will be a good reference.

You should try to match volume if you can-that is, make sure you aren't judging "louder" as "better".

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If we were more than a trio I might let someone else mix sound, however most so called soundmen at least those in the area we work in have all they can do to tune a radio much less dial in a system! Dont get me wrong a good soundman is priceless a bad one can lose you work! Im happy to report that our repeat business tell's me if it aint broke dont fix it.Thank's for the advice, I run a wireless so Im better able to monitor what's happening FOH and make a change but that happens very seldom;)

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Problem is how do you really audition speakers in a music store that will in any way be even close to a full band all mic'ed up shoved in the corner of a bar on some milk crates and plywood behind the pool table????

 

Well you can't test for everything ... but you can test for some things. First, don't ever use MP3's to test a system. The content is so crappy that they will not push an excellent speaker to so off it's stuff. There are test CD's that have a lot of dynamic range ... maybe even more then you'll end up with on the bandstand. When you use CD's don't be listening to your favorite stuff. Instead listen to CD's that are intricate (lost of clean percussion ... with a lot of empty space around them). Remember you're not listening to the music ... you are auditioning the speakers. Whether you "like" the music or not ... Steely Dan usually makes a great choice to evaluate the speakers. You also need to be sure that the amp driving the speakers is working in it's cruising range. If the limiter is kicking in ... you are then listening to the limiter.

 

Make sure that the speakers are in the proper place when listening. For example a speaker on the floor will produce more bass that if you take that same speaker and put it up on a pole or on top of another speaker cabinet. Also ... a speaker in the corner will have super-bass compared to one that isn't. Likewise ... a speaker where the horn is at your ear level will sound clearer than if you drop that speaker down on the ground where the horn is shooting at your waist.

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Amen to that!!!!!!!!

Some people have posted they have heard great drivers crash a show due to poor sound systems. I just have never witnessed that. I have seen talented men make chicken salad out of chicken poop (both system wise and band wise).





Dandy Don, this is not aimed at you personally but this situation in general. I don't know you and do not begin to say this applies to you. That said here is what I think about that quote:


I think running sound from the stage is an instant handicap. You are never going to sound great in that situation. You may figure out how to sound consistently "OK" and many are happy with that. I have found many people are not comfortable letting someone else run sound. Many are just control freaks. Finding a competent person to ride the faders at FOH will improve sound faster than anything. They do not need to be full fledge "soundmen" who understand how to build and maintain a sound system, they just need to learn to mix in a bar.


Just my thoughts.

Carry on.

 

 

There are ways of overcoming the "handicap" of mixing from the stage. Start with talented and dynamic musicians and buy the best gear you can afford, especially speakers. Invite pro-sound and recording people to your live performances to get their input on how your system sounds. Whenever you get the chance, run sound for another band with your gear, to better understand where and how your system sounds best.

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Thank you all for the insight, it is very useful. When mentioning CD's with brass, violin, lots of clean drums etc. do you have specific examples? I am looking to purchasing a new powered speaker setup. I will be auditioning the Mackie, QSC and the new JBL PRX stuff. I'd love to hear bands using some of this stuff but the QSC and PRX stuff is so new I'm not sure anyone around here are using them yet. So I'm stuck with the auditioning these systems in the GC type settings.

Thanks again!

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Ok, so... what do "we" listen for?

 

I'll start this out:

 

1) I listen for phat, warm, and clear... up and down the power band.

 

2) I listen for mushiness... up and down the power band.

 

3) I listen for coverage, and what happens to that coverage over the coverage field... left to right.

 

4) Then I listen for coverage, and what happens to that coverage in the up and down field.

 

5) Finally, I push it to splatter and see where that happens and how it happens.

 

6) Then I go behind and all around and listen to the cabinet... and feel it.

 

7) Then I hook up a TEF and check it out with La-Machine.

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I always audition speakers with someone who's really into pro audio standing next to me. I had the priviledge of listening to 8 different speakers in the same showroom recently! :thu:..which include Proel, EAW, a local brand here and even the humble Behringer.

 

I used Bette Midler's 'Miss Otis Regrets' song from her 'Some People's Live's album. It is a big band type of swing. A lotta dynamics in the song. Blaring killer Horns...smooth upright bass...killer clarinet solo...overall a great song to test the speakers.

 

The difference in sound is very obvious from speaker to speaker. Of course, the EAW was the best amongst them all. 'Always in control' bass...smooth mids and never too bright highs.

 

I think if a speaker sounds great on a track such as Bette Midler's...it'll sound even better when used for live' bands.

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'Always in control' bass...smooth mids and never too bright highs.

 

Well said.

 

Tight bass.

 

Smooth but punchy mids.

 

Clean, clear highs.

 

And NO mud or raspiness.

 

And the ability to put anything on top of anything and have the stuff on-top stand cleanly and clearly out-front without the support stuff disappearing into a mass of brown... without making ANYONE in the audience whince. It should NEVER sound "loud" at anything under 120dB... just clean and punchy.

 

Kind of like my motor scooter... at a 100 (mph)... it feels like you can just roll on the throttle a whole bunch more (cause you can).

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I also have yorkville Elites and find no matter how or what I use with it to power them they allways sound great

 

 

Same here, I've beat the hell out of the tops and subs on several occasions out of neccessity and they've never missed a beat. We've got a pair of the double 18 cabs that have been used pretty much every weekend for the past 10 years and one of the speakers finally blew. It didn't start farting, it just dropped in volume. I love these things for that reason.

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We'll typically brake it down into a bunch of dimensions. Spectral fidelity, spatial imaging & extension, coverage, bass performance, distortion (various types), pedal-to-the-medal, etc.

 

Over time we've found a good collection of pieces that shows fairly quickly if there is a problem in a specific dimensions. We log a lot of time on these pieces over "known good" systems, just to be really familiar with them. We also log time on "known bad" systems, to be familiar with what the problems are and what to exactly to listen for on every piece.

 

For example, the source that you are most familiar with is the human voice. You hear it all day long in it's natural context (whether you like it or not). If the speaker makes a voice sound just like the real thing, than it's spectral fidelity in the speech band is probably fairly good. Remember, this isn't about whether you like the voice representation, but how close the speaker can get to reproducing a "natural" source.

 

Another good one are violins, especially string quartetts. It's a fairly short step from clean, natural, and detailed to mushy and obnoxious. If your toe nails start rolling up, then it's time to look at the next speaker.

 

If any possible, I'll do an A/B (preferably blind if possible) with something "known" to anchor my judgement. Acoustic memory (at least for me) is notoriously unreliable, although practice & training helps.

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As far as choosing CDs to use ... if you have some kind of sound editing program (soundforge, garageband, etc) take a look at the waveform of a cut. If it's pretty well filled in then there's not much dynamic range. You really want to be using CDs that have a lot of dynamic range.

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I use a "soundcheck" CD with certain things I listen for.

 

Also don't stand in one spot while listening to them - move around the room, and move your head up and down. Some speakers have really poor dispersion and you'll hear that real quick. Remember that very few people in a club of 100 will be sitting in the "sweet spot".

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As far as choosing CDs to use ... if you have some kind of sound editing program (soundforge, garageband, etc) take a look at the waveform of a cut. If it's pretty well filled in then there's not much dynamic range. You really want to be using CDs that have a lot of dynamic range.

 

 

Right....anything in the past 10 years is so uber-compressed that any dynamics are squashed all to hell.:confused:

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I just set the EQs flat and use a CD I am familiar with- Usually a Frank Zappa CD ..."Stick Together" off Man From Utopia has lotsa dynamics and a real phat kick... If I crank it and the lows don't fart and the highs are clean-then I'm fairly impressed... Pay ATTENTION to the rest of the system cause any of the other components could color the sound.. try the speaks with different amps, EQs.. etc

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Depending on your budget you could always rent different boxes and try them out in the real world. If you have a decent pro sound dealer near you (that carries the brands you're most interested in) you might be able to swing a deal and get part or all of your rental costs applied toward your purchase.

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