Power Questions

[DJ Swydez]

Okay, now in the near future, when I get a little more cash, I am thinking about upgrading my power "stuff." I currently use what you guys refer to as "lawn company" cables, which are either orange, blue, or green, and a couple of standard white 6-plugs to power all of my audio and lighting gear. This, as most of you know, does not look very professional at all. Now, my question is, is it better to buy some pre-made black professional power cables from some place such as Audioeast, or make my own power cables? (I'll probably need 2 50-100 footers and 2 20 footers for now... definately more down the road.) Does guage make a huge difference in power cables (12g vs. 14g vs. 16g)? How hard is it to make your own power cables and where would I get the stuff I need to do it (if this is the best option)? Also, I understand that it is recommended to have a power conditioner in your rack to protect your gear from power strikes and remove noise from the line. Is this true? Are they necessary? Should I invest in a power conditioner right now, or could I continue to live without it for a while? Do they make power conditioners that tell you how many amps you are drawing from the wall with your equipment, cause I know they make ones that give you voltage ratings. Also, do you guys have some recommendations for power conditioners?

 

Any help is appreciated.

[agedhorse]

1. Gauge makes a difference. so does length. Longer cables, and/or higher load requires a lower gauge number.

 

2. It's not hard to make up power cables IF you follow the directions absolutely correctly. If you are not one to follow the instructions, it's better to have them made by somebode who does.

 

3. Power "conditioners" and their ilk that whould have an attractive enough price that you would consider them provide virtually no protection at all. Real power conditioning devices are quite expensive, possibly costing as much as your console. Don't bother.

[sharnrock]

I would suggest 12awg SO cord for all of your extension cords. I wouldn't go any lower than 14 for connecting your amps, but 12awg doesn't cost that much more. 16awg is acceptable by code, but amps draw a lot of power typically. You can get the cord and the cord ends at Home Depot, Lowe's or an electrical supply house. They are very easy to make up. You just need some wire strippers, some type of knife, and screw drivers. When you score the sheathing or outer layer make sure you don't cut into the insulation of the individual wire. Don't cut the sheathing back too far or you'll expose the wires to possible damage. SO cord has stranded conductors, so you want to twirl them nice and tight before putting them into the screw slots. Make sure you crank the screws down hard on the copper wires to make sure you have a good connection. If you don't it could cause arcing which leads to heat which leads to more arcing and so on and so on. Just attach green to the green screw, the white to the silver screw and black to the gold screw. This is important so you don't screw up the polarity of the cord.

 

I think a cheap amp probe could be had for under $30. Keep in mind that you can't just attach an amp probe to the extension cord, you can only measure 1 wire at a time. Your volts are going to be between 110-120 anyway, so there's not much point in measuring them unless you are afraid of a dropped neutral or a mistake from the power company.

[Craig Vecchione]

If you decide to make your own, and go with 12AWG, be sure that the plug you buy will accept it. Many 15a Edison plugs won't.

[DJ Swydez]

1. Gauge makes a difference. so does length. Longer cables, and/or higher load requires a lower gauge number. 2. It's not hard to make up power cables IF you follow the directions absolutely correctly. If you are not one to follow the instructions, it's better to have them made by somebode who does. 3. Power "conditioners" and their ilk that whould have an attractive enough price that you would consider them provide virtually no protection at all. Real power conditioning devices are quite expensive, possibly costing as much as your console. Don't bother.

 

Thanks for the great input Andy!

 

1. Okay, well now that I think about it, I'll probably need only 2 50 foot power cables, so would 16g be enough for that? The orange cables I currently use are 16g or 18g, and I have not had any problems. The most power I ever hook up to is 2 15-20 amp circuits, so maximum of 20 amps on each cable (which will probably never happen... I just hook up to 2 circuits when I bring a lot of equipment so I never risk blowing 1 of them). The equipment I usually bring is: QSC RMX-2450 for tops (running stereo in 8 or 4 ohms... never 2), sometimes a QSC RMX-1450 for subs (running stereo in 8 ohms), Mackie 1202 Mixer, Laptop Computer, and a bunch of lights of various wattages. (If I ever rent a bigger system requiring more power, I can rent power cables, a distro, generator, etc. so that is not a concern). So would 16g cables work, or do I need 14g cables?

 

2. Okay, well in that case, I'll probably just buy them from somewhere like Audioeast.

 

3. Okay, well I have no where near that kind of cash to spend right now, so should I just get one of those handy Furman 8 outlet power strips with pop-out lights on the front? Would that be a better solution than the white household 6-plugs? Also, do they make power strips with amp meters on them?

[sharnrock]

 

3. Okay, well I have no where near that kind of cash to spend right now, so should I just get one of those handy Furman 8 outlet power strips with pop-out lights on the front? Would that be a better solution than the white household 6-plugs? Also, do they make power strips with amp meters on them?

 

 

I've never seen a power strip with an amp meter in it. At work we make our own power strips out of standard receptacles and electrical boxes.

[mattrw89]

Regarding gauge... I would still buy 12gauge cables... My church just bought about 300ft of 12 gauge so that we can now run our (4800W max) system just about anywhere. Go for the larger cables or you may regret it if you get a larger system.

 

Matt

[Craig Vecchione]

Thanks for the great input Andy! 1. Okay, well now that I think about it, I'll probably need only 2 50 foot power cables, so would 16g be enough for that? The orange cables I currently use are 16g or 18g, and I have not had any problems. The most power I ever hook up to is 2 15-20 amp circuits, so maximum of 20 amps on each cable (which will probably never happen... I just hook up to 2 circuits when I bring a lot of equipment so I never risk blowing 1 of them). The equipment I usually bring is: QSC RMX-2450 for tops (running stereo in 8 or 4 ohms... never 2), sometimes a QSC RMX-1450 for subs (running stereo in 8 ohms), Mackie 1202 Mixer, Laptop Computer, and a bunch of lights of various wattages. (If I ever rent a bigger system requiring more power, I can rent power cables, a distro, generator, etc. so that is not a concern). So would 16g cables work, or do I need 14g cables?

 

Go with 14AWG if you're using 15a circuits, 12AWG if 20a, for no longer than 50 feet. You really could go one size bigger for each. This is one place where size really matters.

[DJ Swydez]

I would suggest 12awg SO cord for all of your extension cords. I wouldn't go any lower than 14 for connecting your amps, but 12awg doesn't cost that much more. 16awg is acceptable by code, but amps draw a lot of power typically. You can get the cord and the cord ends at Home Depot, Lowe's or an electrical supply house. They are very easy to make up. You just need some wire strippers, some type of knife, and screw drivers. When you score the sheathing or outer layer make sure you don't cut into the insulation of the individual wire. Don't cut the sheathing back too far or you'll expose the wires to possible damage. SO cord has stranded conductors, so you want to twirl them nice and tight before putting them into the screw slots. Make sure you crank the screws down hard on the copper wires to make sure you have a good connection. If you don't it could cause arcing which leads to heat which leads to more arcing and so on and so on. Just attach green to the green screw, the white to the silver screw and black to the gold screw. This is important so you don't screw up the polarity of the cord.

 

Okay, so you suggest 12g for all? The 2 25-foot cables will be used for running lights, nothing else, so would I be safe with 16g on those? On Audioeast, I can get 2 25-foot 16g black cables for $12, which isn't bad. But for the other cables you suggest 12g because amps require more power, rite? I would only have a maximum of 2 amps on 1 line (if there was a shortage of outlets), 1 QSC RMX-2450 and 1 QSC RMX-1450. On Audioeast, 12g cables are double the price of 16g. How much would I be looking to spend if I made 2 50 foot cables from materials at Home Depot? How much does 12g SO run/ft? And how much are ends/pc? If it is very cost effective, I might consider making my own cables, but if I only save a little, I'll just order them and avoid the risk of having problems.

 

And thanks for the tips and assembly process! Very helpful!

[DJ Swydez]

I would suggest 12awg SO cord for all of your extension cords. I wouldn't go any lower than 14 for connecting your amps, but 12awg doesn't cost that much more. 16awg is acceptable by code, but amps draw a lot of power typically. You can get the cord and the cord ends at Home Depot, Lowe's or an electrical supply house. They are very easy to make up. You just need some wire strippers, some type of knife, and screw drivers. When you score the sheathing or outer layer make sure you don't cut into the insulation of the individual wire. Don't cut the sheathing back too far or you'll expose the wires to possible damage. SO cord has stranded conductors, so you want to twirl them nice and tight before putting them into the screw slots. Make sure you crank the screws down hard on the copper wires to make sure you have a good connection. If you don't it could cause arcing which leads to heat which leads to more arcing and so on and so on. Just attach green to the green screw, the white to the silver screw and black to the gold screw. This is important so you don't screw up the polarity of the cord.

 

Okay, so you suggest 12g for all? The 2 25-foot cables will be used for running lights, nothing else, so would I be safe with 16g on those? On Audioeast, I can get 2 25-foot 16g black cables for $12, which isn't bad. But for the other cables you suggest 12g because amps require more power, rite? I would only have a maximum of 2 amps on 1 line (if there was a shortage of outlets), 1 QSC RMX-2450 and 1 QSC RMX-1450. On Audioeast, 12g cables are double the price of 16g. How much would I be looking to spend if I made 2 50 foot cables from materials at Home Depot? How much does 12g SO run/ft? And how much are ends/pc? If it is very cost effective, I might consider making my own cables, but if I only save a little, I'll just order them and avoid the risk of having problems.

 

And thanks for the tips and assembly process! Very helpful!

[dboomer]

Let's make this easy ...

 

Buy 12 ga cables ... period! (if 50') You'll probably save money buying premade as you probably won't be able to buy thermoplastic cable ... just rubber. Rubber (or rubberlike) SJO and SO rated cables would be the best but they are the most expensive. They are easier to roll up but other than that you probably will never notice the difference (until you make it to the pro circuit where they must be SO if over 20' to be legal.

 

Power conditioners that cost less than $600 are a complete waste of your money.

[agedhorse]

 

Let's make this easy ... Power conditioners that cost less than $600 are a complete waste of your money.

 

 

Agreed 100%

[boomerweps]

16ga is not good for lights or the PA. Lights can be more of a power draw than the PA. Don't bother with anything smaller than 14ga. And anything over 25 feet long, use 12ga. The larger cable has less voltage loss over the distance. Part of the reason many frown upon the orange lawn cords is because they are most likely small wires, 16ga.

 

You can pickup a square box, cover, and a couple duplex outlets for under $5. A plug able to handle the 12Ga cable will be about $8-10, avoiding those with screws that stick out. 12ga 3 wire runs about $0.60 a foot for SJ , $0.70 for SO, sometimes a bit more. I've mostly used SJOOW for mine but SOOW is required if you are going to get inspected by most municipalities. You can get a gland nut for the electrical box to grip the cable sheath vice using a standard residential box clamp with (sometimes painfull) screws sticking out for a couple bucks, they are worth it.

 

When I have a few extra bucks that I don't have to spend elsewhere, I go to the local electrical supply store and pickup some 12ga power cable and make a PA power cable or two (cheaper than Home Despot). Easy to say "Gimme $20 or $30 worth" and cut it to the desired lengths ;>) I usually pickup the other parts at Home Despot, where they are cheaper.

 

Why Audioeast even bothers selling 16ga power cables is beyond me.

 

Concur about the power conditioners. However they are handy as a central rack mounted turn on unit, extra features like lights and meters are nice. But standard power strips and surge protectors do the same job much cheaper.

 

Boomerweps

[TimmyP]

http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/ACcables/ACcables.htm

[DJ Swydez]

Okay, so now I understand that I should basically use no less that 12g wires. And that power conditioners under $600 or so are completely useless and a waste of money. And, basically you guys are telling me that in order to get exactly what I want, I should probably dedicate some funds and an entire day to custom making my cables. Sounds like a project that may have to wait a while... as I do not have the time or the money right now to do this. Plus, I just checked, and I can rent 25-foot 12/3 cables for $3, 50-foot 12/3 cables for $6, and 100-foot cables for $12, so I am all set for right now.

 

Thanks guys for all of your help on this issue!

 

I just have 2 more questions:

 

1) What exactly is a power distro used for?

2) Could I run my rig off of a 6500-watt generator if I ever wanted to or is that not enough power?

[dboomer]

What exactly is a power distro used for?

 

A power distribution system is the way to get more AC current to your gear. It's just a big AC strip with some HD breakers. Lights and big amplifiers often draw more current than you can supply from a single AC circuit. Remember ... amplifiers don't make power, they just re-distribute it. If you are running more than 3 power amps there's a good chance that you are not getting them enough current so that they can put out their full power. Getting more amps won't get you louder either, you'll just be splitting up the current even more and/or popping breakers.

 

The trick with Distros is getting them hooked up to the electrical panel. It's a job for electricians. Tying in incorrectly can get you or someone else killed (or maybe you'll just burn down the building).

 

It just so happens that Peavey will finally be shipping our "Distro " in April after a year of hassling with safety agencies. It's a simple plug in unit that plugs into a 14-50 (range) socket. These are showing up all over the place, in clubs, convention centers and Holiday Inns. You just plug into the wall ... no electrician needed (unless you need one to put in the wall plate the first time)

[6Imzadi]

This is an example of a distro box. If you don't know what any one part of it is, then don't get near one. They can be dangerous to those who don't know.

[agedhorse]

A couple of notes about the Neutrik PowerCons that TimmyP promotes in his cheap but not legal power distribution system.

 

1. PowerCons are not UL listed for use with 12 gauge wire. The maximum wire size for UL is 14AWG due to the wire saddle design.

 

2. PowerCons are UL recognized for use within equipment (such as a manufactured amplifier) where the load profile is defined. Under some conditions, 14 gauge detachable mains cordset may be used on a device fused at 20 amps if the load profile is known.

 

3. The PowerCon coupler is NOT UL listed (unless something changed between when I examined one a couple of years ago and now) because the extruded amuminum housing is NOT attached or bonded to safety ground and there is no double-insulation rating. The danger of this is if a wire comes loose within the coupling and touches the shell, it may become energized and a shock hazard. Think about picking one up off of damp grass... yikes!

 

4. Modifying a UL listed power strip immediately voids it's UL listing. End of story here.

 

5. Plastic power strips are specifically not approved for stage use under UL. There are some very specific requirements for where they may and may not be used. Any place mechanical damage is likely to occur is a good start here.

 

6. Half-assing a power distribution system engdangers not only you, but other unsuspecting people as well. Nobody cares if you hurt yourself... that's your right... but hurting somebody else is bad ju-ju.

[milesdf]

 

Okay, so now I understand that I should basically use no less that 12g wires. And that power conditioners under $600 or so are completely useless and a waste of money. And, basically you guys are telling me that in order to get exactly what I want, I should probably dedicate some funds and an entire day to custom making my cables. Sounds like a project that may have to wait a while... as I do not have the time or the money right now to do this. Plus, I just checked, and I can rent 25-foot 12/3 cables for $3, 50-foot 12/3 cables for $6, and 100-foot cables for $12, so I am all set for right now.

 

 

sounds like you need to find time and money to me. you could have what you wanted for the cost of renting 5 or 6 times if you buy your cable in bulk, especially if your running rentals just on cable. plus renting cable isn't always a walk in the park, make sure you trust the guy you rent from. the occasional need to rent more cable when you rent a bigger system is fine, makes sense, but renting only cable for a system you own can't be a good business choice.

[boomerweps]

 

1. PowerCons are not UL listed for use with 12 gauge wire. The maximum wire size for UL is 14AWG due to the wire saddle design. 2. PowerCons are UL recognized for use within equipment (such as a manufactured amplifier) where the load profile is defined. Under some conditions, 14 gauge detachable mains cordset may be used on a device fused at 20 amps if the load profile is known.

 

 

OK, so does 2. come into play on those medium & large self powered line arrays. I cant imagine that all those powercon power drops to the line arrays are using 14ga power cables. Are they? Same question on the more expensive self powered monitors.

 

Boomerweps

[Craig Vecchione]

TimmyP,

 

Relying on your equipment to be overlooked by an inspector whose job is protecting the general public is no way to go about this business. And using the now standard "you're on your own" type disclaimer is fine if what you're presenting is a legitimate effort to meet Code and safety standards, but you obviously know it's not.

 

You've posted this link several times in the past and we've had to caution users here against following your examples. Please delete that post and refrain from posting it here again. If you don't, I'll delete it.

 

It would be a real service to others if you updated your gear and your website with examples of legal power equipment. It will cost more than what you've got now, but much less than the cost of a mishap.

[milesdf]

 

TimmyP, Relying on your equipment to be overlooked by an inspector whose job is protecting the general public is no way to go about this business. And using the now standard "you're on your own" type disclaimer is fine if what you're presenting is a legitimate effort to meet Code and safety standards, but you obviously know it's not. You've posted this link several times in the past and we've had to caution users here against following your examples. Please delete that post and refrain from posting it here again. If you don't, I'll delete it. It would be a real service to others if you updated your gear and your website with examples of legal power equipment. It will cost more than what you've got now, but much less than the cost of a mishap.

 

 

woah. who is saying that his rig isn't safe? while parts of it may not be quite to code, I've never worked anywhere close to a pro company that's completely to code, much less anyone that does bar gigs, and while I might not have the most exposure theres still a decent amount to see a trend. I see nothing about his setup that isn't as safe as anything else out there. While his power strips are modified and unconventional (I wouldnt build it) there doesn't seem to be anything unsafe about them, at least as close to being safe as everyone else out there is. His bar distro should be more then safe as its inside a grounded chassis. The most questionable piece I can see are the powercon couplers, and those come straight from the factory that way. His system is kinda odd because he takes time and the expense to use SO cable while doing these things, but code isnt everything in this business, especially in a bar.

 

the fact that he posts it without explaining is wierd, but there isnt much that you wouldnt expect with the powercon system: tons of homebuilt crap that doesn't make alot of sense. at least this is showing an effort towards safety. I've seen pictures of people with distros similar to his mounted to a solid rack plate with no chassis and in use while falling apart, thats what needs to be avoided here.

[agedhorse]

 

OK, so does 2. come into play on those medium & large self powered line arrays. I cant imagine that all those powercon power drops to the line arrays are using 14ga power cables. Are they? Same question on the more expensive self powered monitors. Boomerweps

 

 

I suspect they do. This falls under the defined load catagory which allows for equipment OCP's dependant on the load profile. A 2000 watt line array cabinet, with a class D amplifier package, could easily fit on 15 amps by the way. (2000 watts x 1.1 efficiency) x (0.25 load profile) = 550 continuous watts input / 115v = 5 amps.

 

This is why they do have their place. This is using a 1/4 power load profile (6dB power crest factor). UL stipulates a minimum of 1/8 power. I usually use between 1/4 and 1/3 depending on the product.

[agedhorse]

In response to milesdf... the goal is to made a reasonable attempt to be safe and to comply to the code. It's up to Timmy and his clients if he chooses to skirt the code but to encourage others who DO NOT KNOW BETTER to do so is irresponsible and dangerous IMO.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

woah. who is saying that his rig isn't safe? while parts of it may not be quite to code, I've never worked anywhere close to a pro company that's completely to code, much less anyone that does bar gigs, and while I might not have the most exposure theres still a decent amount to see a trend. I see nothing about his setup that isn't as safe as anything else out there. While his power strips are modified and unconventional (I wouldnt build it) there doesn't seem to be anything unsafe about them, at least as close to being safe as everyone else out there is. His bar distro should be more then safe as its inside a grounded chassis. The most questionable piece I can see are the powercon couplers, and those come straight from the factory that way. His system is kinda odd because he takes time and the expense to use SO cable while doing these things, but code isnt everything in this business, especially in a bar. the fact that he posts it without explaining is wierd, but there isnt much that you wouldnt expect with the powercon system: tons of homebuilt crap that doesn't make alot of sense. at least this is showing an effort towards safety. I've seen pictures of people with distros similar to his mounted to a solid rack plate with no chassis and in use while falling apart, thats what needs to be avoided here.

 

 

 

I don't recall saying what he links to is unsafe. Andy has more than adequately explained what's wrong with what is shown there. But since you ask, I can add that the "band power box" is unsafe. It's designed to do exactly what every power strip manufacturer (and common sense) tell you not to do...daisy-chain additional boxes or loads to the unit....he's added a pass-through. UL didn't test it that way, and who knows what's inside, or what the average forum reader is likely to do if he sees this and "inspired", decides to build his own. He's touted the Powercon as being a 20a device, and installed two on the power boxes. What's stopping Joe DIY from sticking a 20a Edison on the end, and running 20a loads though a 15a device? For that matter, what prevents Joe from connecting *both* ends to different power sources, possibly on different service phases, and creating a shorted 240v 20a circuit....on a 120v 15a device? Powercons don't obviously lend themselves to knowing which is the "plug" and which is the "outlet" and that's a problem for beginners. What part of all this is "showing an effort towards safety"?

 

Frankly, I wouldn't be nearly as willing to delete this link if it were not for the comment that "I expect that what I show here will be more likely to get overlooked (and therefore "passed") during an inspection". It doesn't matter that it might be better than what else is out there, we all know there's plenty of crap. But the users of that crap aren't linking other people to pictures of it and passing it off as "Quality AC" in this forum. I really don't want this forum used as a conduit to a lawsuit, against HC/MF or TimmyP. As I stated, I'd much rather see him post gear that will pass an inspection. Isn't that what we're trying to do here...raise the standard?