Members bennyg85 Posted March 5, 2007 Members Share Posted March 5, 2007 Hi I just bought a new Taylor acoustic with the ES pickup system. One of the main selling points of this pickup is that it can be used without a di box as long as a balanced TRS cable is used. I've been trying to do some research about TRS cables and I understand they have an extra signal cable. Does this mean I can use a stereo jack cable with my guitar (is this the same???)and then have a jack-xlr converter to allow me to plug into a mixer. Thanks in advance Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted March 5, 2007 Members Share Posted March 5, 2007 Balanced cables have 3 wires and may have an XLR or a TRS (Tip, Ring Sleeve, what's commonly used as a single stereo plug). You can use either a TRS to XLR cable for your guitar or a TRS to TRS. Usually it's best if the cable is twisted pair with a ground type. That means the main signal lines are twisted for better noise rejection. JUST because they use a 3 contact jack does not mean the signal from the guitar is balanced or impedance matched for a mic preamp. It's probably better to use the mixer's channel line in, most are balanced inputs. Is the ES pickup active? Boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bennyg85 Posted March 5, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 5, 2007 Yes, the pickup is active. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ThorProductions Posted March 5, 2007 Members Share Posted March 5, 2007 If you plan on going direct into a mixer or snake, use a TRS connector to a Male XLR connector. This allows a balanced cable to be used for longer runs without signal loss. The ES has a preamp built in to allow for this to change a high impedance to low impedance signal. The balanced cable is not stereo.The extra signal is the same signal 180 degrees out of phase with each other.This cancels noise. If you do not want to do this, then you can just use a standard 1/4" guitar cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bennyg85 Posted March 5, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 5, 2007 That's what I needed to know. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashivraj Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 A couple of things to watch for:- are you sure the 'stereo' jack isn't actually stereo, i.e. sending two different signals (mic and pickup) for external blending?- if you use a TRS > XLR, make sure phantom is switched off at the desk. For some reason I inherently distrust the combination of 1/4" and 48V. AS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 A "stereo" jack IS a tip, ring, sleeve jack. They are also refered to as a balanced connector when plugged into a balanced recept. On a mixer, the jack will plug into a line input. This is a high impedance input. This is not a bad thing. The guitar is probably a line out device, or a high impedance device. Do not change it to a 3 pin XLR connector at the mixer. The mixer is looking for a low impedance signal at this XLR connector. Not a good match. It won't sound good this way. p.s. Phantom power is usually present only on the XLR connector on a mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members preacherman672 Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 As ThorProductions said the ES pickup series is designed to be used with a TRS to XLR cable. I own one myself :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 Does this mean I can use a stereo jack cable with my guitar (is this the same???)and then have a jack-xlr converter to allow me to plug into a mixer. I'm thinking something like this could do what you want: http://www.audiopile.net/products/Mic_Instr_Cables/MP_Adaptor_Cbls/MP-106/MP-106_cutsheet.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keyrick Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 The Taylor expression system provides a balanced output. It will work in an unbalanced connection, but the level will drop some. In the balanced enviornment, you can use either a TRS-TRS or a TRS-XLR cable to connect the guitar to a mixer. Phantom power is not required, but it won't hurt it either. There can be a problem using a TRS-XLR cable in that many mixers do not provide individual phantom power options on a per channel basis. Some do, but if your mixer doesn't you can cause a nasty pop, at the least, or possibly do serious harm to your mixer, if phantom power is applied and you unplug the guitar at the guitar jack. This action can short either the ring and sleave, the tip and sleave, or all three for the instant that your are unpluging from the instrument, which can place a short on the phantom power supply in the mixer. This can interrupt the phantom power going to other microphones that are connected to the mixer. It is always a little scary to have phantom power terminate on anything with a quarter inch jack. Your best bet is to use a TRS-TRS cable into a balanced 1/4 inch input on your mixer, which eliminates phantom power from the equation. Check out this link. http://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/ES_Guide.pdf Good luck. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 Shorting the phantom power will not hurt any mixer designed to be use by normal people. They are all inherently current limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keyrick Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 Shorting the phantom power will not hurt any mixer designed to be use by normal people. They are all inherently current limited. I would agree on most PA mixers. You will blow 2 pre-amps on a Tascam FW-1884 recording interface if you short the phantom power. Not all mixers are for PA. And on my 24 channel Mackie, which doesn't have individual per channel phantom power switches, a nasty pop, which can blow a driver if the level is too high, will definately occur. Hell, it can happen just unplugging a mic. There are all kinds of people out there. Some of us are normal. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bennyg85 Posted March 6, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 Thank you for all the replies. What I'm really trying to ask is, can I use the stereo planet waves instrument cable I already have as a balanced cable? If I use a guitar->stereo cable->trs-xlr converter will the signal be balanced? Ben Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 6, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted March 6, 2007 Thank you for all the replies. What I'm really trying to ask is, can I use the stereo planet waves instrument cable I already have as a balanced cable? If I use a guitar->stereo cable->trs-xlr converter will the signal be balanced?Ben Yes. The ES has a balanced output, and a TRS cable such as yours would work fine into a mixer's mic inputs (XLR jacks). This is assuming you're intended input is a mixer, not a guitar amp that doesn't have XLR low-impedance input(s). Note that a balanced signal requires three things: A balanced output device, a balanced cable, and a balanced input device. IF any of the three are not present, or the balanced signal path is interrupted by an unbalanced device, the signal path is not balanced. The purpose of a balanced signal is to cancel noise such as RF that may be picked up by the cable run. It is very useful for long runs of cable such as from a mic to a mixer via a snake. If you use any effects or a tuner in the signal path, you should use a standard guitar cable from the guitar to the effects/tuner and can then use a DI box/XLR cable if the run to the mixer is longer than another 15 feet or so of cable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 6, 2007 Members Share Posted March 6, 2007 I would agree on most PA mixers. You will blow 2 pre-amps on a Tascam FW-1884 recording interface if you short the phantom power. Not all mixers are for PA. And on my 24 channel Mackie, which doesn't have individual per channel phantom power switches, a nasty pop, which can blow a driver if the level is too high, will definately occur. Hell, it can happen just unplugging a mic. Rick All phantom power inputs are inherently protected from shorting phantom power... they wouldn't work if they weren't. If you are paralleling another input without isolating it and it does not provide phantom power and it's not properly designed, that's the fault of the user (and the manufacturer if the information is not supplied), not the fault of the phantom power. Of course you will get a loud pop when connecting or disconnecting a mic input with phantom power turned on. It's never a good idea to plug or unplug an input with the volume up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keyrick Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 All phantom power inputs are inherently protected from shorting phantom power... they wouldn't work if they weren't. If you are paralleling another input without isolating it and it does not provide phantom power and it's not properly designed' date=' that's the fault of the user (and the manufacturer if the information is not supplied), not the fault of the phantom power.QUOTE'] Andy, Not all implementations of phantom power are the same. The example I pointed out was a design error by the manfacturer, which they have acknowledged, but will not fix unless it is under warrenty. Please see the link attached. http://www.jb-2000.net/fw1884/MFWM.pdf bennyg85 was asking about the Taylor Expression System. I own a Taylor 414ce which has the expression system equipped. I use this guitar live on stage, but I don't use an XLR to TRS because my mixers phantom option is all or none. Since we use SM87s and an SM86 for vocal mics, the phantom power must be on. If I used an XLR to TRS cable to the guitar, and it became unplugged from the guitar and just fell on the stage, I would have a quarter inch TRS plug with active phantom power applied to the tip and ring, laying on the floor. If it should come in contact with a guitar amp, keyboard, or any other device that connected to the AC mains, there is a danger of harming the channel, and possibly the entire mixer, depending upon the phantom power implementation on the mixer. Have you never seen a mixer that had the phantom power go out? It is never a good practice to have phantom power applied to a quarter inch TRS plug , period. My example of a recording mixer with a bad design is well documented. I was pointing out that all devices that provide phantom power are not the same, and damage can be done unwittingly to these devices if improper practices are employed. I have worked with derived power delivery systems for over twenty years and the post was about sharing correct information to the OP. His best bet, if he is connecting to a mixer, is to use a TRS-TRS cable into a quarter inch balanced input on his mixer. Good luck. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 His best bet, if he is connecting to a mixer, is to use a TRS-TRS cable into a quarter inch balanced input on his mixer.Rick Rick: Your advice is good... but... I personally own 14 different mixers... well... actually a heck of a lot more than that if I count warehouse inventory... but I'm trying to think of a single one that has a TRS balanced input... and I'm coming up with a goose egg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Prog Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 Even Mackie 1604s have balanced TRS inputs. They aren't that uncommon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 Even Mackie 1604s have balanced TRS inputs. They aren't that uncommon. Could be. I don't own a Mackie 1604s. I do own: 1) 1 ea. Soundcraft Venue II2) 2 ea. Yamaha PM-3000's3) 1 ea. Soundcraft Spirit Mark IV-244) 1 ea. Soundcraft Spirit Mark IV-165) 1 ea. Soundcraft Spirit 24-46) 1 ea. Soundcraft Spirit 16-47) 1 ea. DDA Q-2 328) 1 ea. DDA Q-329) 1 ea. Soundcraft Spirit Rackpack10) 2 ea. Peavey Mark IV11) 1 ea. Yamaha PM-180012) Some portion of a Ramsa SX-1A13) 1 ea. Yamaha 2404 I have also owned: 1) 2 ea. Carvin 1644's2) 1 ea. Yamaha 16043) 1 ea. Peavey Mark VIII4) 1 ea. DDA Interface 165) 1 ea. Peavey Unity 10006) 1 ea. Peavey 16017) 1 ea. Sunn SPL-22248) 2 ea. Yamaha 2408's9) 4 ea. various Yamaha PM-1000's10) 1 ea. TOA RX-7-32 None of which contained even ONE (1) single balanced TRS input that I can recall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keyrick Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 Rick:Your advice is good... but... I personally own 14 different mixers... well... actually a heck of a lot more than that if I count warehouse inventory... but I'm trying to think of a single one that has a TRS balanced input... and I'm coming up with a goose egg. Well, I own a Mackie 24-4, 1202, and an Onyx 1220, and they all have line level quarter inch balanced inputs for each channel. My old Soundcraft did as well. On the A&H website, the documentation advised that their MixWiz series has them as does the Midas Venice series. On all of these, the quarter inch TRS balanced input jack is placed in the chain before the trim control. The Taylor has active electronics and puts out a line level signal. You may not want to plug a dynamic microphone into these jacks, but for the Taylor, it works great. Good Luck. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 Well, I own a Mackie 24-4, 1202, and an Onyx 1220, and they all have line level quarter inch balanced inputs for each channel. My old Soundcraft did as well. On the A&H website, the documentation advised that their MixWiz series has them as does the Midas Venice series. On all of these, the quarter inch TRS balanced input jack is placed in the chain before the trim control. Well there you go... a match made in someplace. I guess I missed out on balanced 1/4" TRS inputs on all the mixers I've owned. Luck of the draw I guess. 'course... I've never had much of any reason to own a mixer for it's balanced 1/4" input virtues... but then I've never owned or worked with somebody with a Tayor guitar who needed a balanced 1/4" input with a side concern on my part about a mis (under) engineered global phantom power on my board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 Andy, Not all implementations of phantom power are the same. The example I pointed out was a design error by the manfacturer, which they have acknowledged, but will not fix unless it is under warrenty. Please see the link attached.http://www.jb-2000.net/fw1884/MFWM.pdfbennyg85 was asking about the Taylor Expression System. I own a Taylor 414ce which has the expression system equipped. I use this guitar live on stage, but I don't use an XLR to TRS because my mixers phantom option is all or none. Since we use SM87s and an SM86 for vocal mics, the phantom power must be on. If I used an XLR to TRS cable to the guitar, and it became unplugged from the guitar and just fell on the stage, I would have a quarter inch TRS plug with active phantom power applied to the tip and ring, laying on the floor. If it should come in contact with a guitar amp, keyboard, or any other device that connected to the AC mains, there is a danger of harming the channel, and possibly the entire mixer, depending upon the phantom power implementation on the mixer. Have you never seen a mixer that had the phantom power go out? It is never a good practice to have phantom power applied to a quarter inch TRS plug , period. My example of a recording mixer with a bad design is well documented. I was pointing out that all devices that provide phantom power are not the same, and damage can be done unwittingly to these devices if improper practices are employed. I have worked with derived power delivery systems for over twenty years and the post was about sharing correct information to the OP. His best bet, if he is connecting to a mixer, is to use a TRS-TRS cable into a quarter inch balanced input on his mixer.Good luck.Rick The problem with the Tascam has absolutely nothing to do with phantom power, the problem is that the NJM-4580 op amp does not have internal diff pair input protection diodes, so it's possible to exceed the allowable common mode input range without the diodes installed. Many op-amps have this feature on the chip itself. Replacing the SIP with an op-amp featuring the protection would also solve the problem but wouldn't be as interesting as a "DIY" project. Having phantom power switched on can make this problem worse, but it's not the cause. Adding diodes to the rails is also a good idea, guaranteeing that you won't have this kind of failure. I have not seen a phantom power failure on any console I have ever serviced that was due to ANYTHING done to the input. There are (typically) 5.6k series resistors from the +48V to pin 3 and pin 2, guaranteeing a current of less than 10mA for a dead short. Phantom power supplies fail for the same reason other circuits fail... bad parts, bad design, or mechanical damage. I agree it's not a good idea to have a TRS with phantom rolling about on a stage, or being plugged/unplugged but for the potential of damaging noises that will result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Keyrick Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 Well there you go... a match made in someplace. I guess I missed out on balanced 1/4" TRS inputs on all the mixers I've owned. Luck of the draw I guess. 'course... I've never had much of any reason to own a mixer for it's balanced 1/4" input virtues... but then I've never owned or worked with somebody with a Tayor guitar who needed a balanced 1/4" input with a side concern on my part about a mis (under) engineered global phantom power on my board. No worries. You probably would if you were a Keyboard player with the need for TRS balanced inputs. That was my initial requirement as all of my boards that I gig with have balanced outputs. Best regards. Rick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Prog Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 None of which contained even ONE (1) single balanced TRS input that I can recall. Word to the wise ... I specifically look for this feature for higher end keyboards, modules, etc. that use balanced outputs. Even Line 6 PODs have balanced outputs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigmike216 Posted March 7, 2007 Members Share Posted March 7, 2007 when in doubt, use a DI! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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