What needs compressing/limiting?

[kerf]

At the moment I am not running any compression or limiting through the PA except a bit of limiting with a Driverack PA. My amp is a QSC 2450 driving monitors (2 JBL jrx 12" mons) on one side and mains (EV Eliminatori) on the other. I'm about to add JBL Mpro 418 with a QSC 1850 into the mix. Ultimately I would like Keys (DI), Guitar (Mic'd), Bass (DI), and kick miced running through mains/subs.

 

My primary concern is limiting. Compression would be secondary to that, but that may come from a viewpoint of ignorance. My point is, I'm concerned about damaging something, especially since I own the PA. Should I Limit each instrument before they go into the mixer, or should I let the limiter on the Driverack do it's thing? Second, should I compress each instrument separately, or again allow the driverack to do it's thing?

 

I would think the DRPA could manage the limiting fairly well. But I'm concerned that compression through the DR will occur to the whole signal and not really affect just the one instrument that may drop out or get very hot, like the guitar. Then the whole mix through the mains is screwed by one instrument.

 

 

Finally, recommend a comp/gat/lim that is reasonably priced. The dbx 1066 seems to be well-thought of. Any others?

 

Thanks.

[kerf]

Hmmm, maybe I'm asking the wrong question?

 

In reading the archives, It's looking like compression isn't a great idea for keys. But I'm thinking that could be the case for every instrument. I think I need to find out more about compression.

 

Should I just limit it all and be done with it?

[Craig Vecchione]

You could use the RMX-2450's limiters and forget limiting on the DRPA, or visa-versa. It's easier to use the amp's limiters, since you do have to set the DRPA (or any) limiter carefully to be sure you're not either killing the available amp power, or not actually protecting anything.

 

Compression on a main output will indeed work on the 'loudest' signal in the mix, and will compress the entire signal. LF has the most energy, so it will tend to engage compression earlier than might seem useful. So for example the kick might keep dropping the entire mix level to the beat of the music.

 

There are a lot of opinions on compression and limiting, but for live music, it's usually not desirable to compress the entire mix. Just comp the instruments that are most likely to have high peaks, and go easy on it if you don't want to squash their sound.

 

The dbx 1066 is a good comp, but would be 'more' comp than the rest of your rig would dictate. A 166 or 266 would be more in line with the rest of the system. I'd go for a 266....$250, works really well, won't get sneared at too often by gear snobs:D

[kerf]

Thanks Craig, and that's what I'm trying to get at. Do I even need compression at all or can I use the limiters I have already and just be done with it. My first goal is to protect my equipment.

 

But I'm also trying to figure out what others are adding compression to, if they are at all. I mix from stage for small gigs, but usually have someone to mix for the larger gigs. In some respects, I'm trying to combat volume creep, but also keep my guitar player in a somewhat controlled volume area so that he can turn up and down a bit without drowning everyone else out. Since the subs are new, I don't know how much low end I'll need to control, yet.

 

Mixing from stage is tough because the ears tend to get numb and while we're getting better about keeping volume reasonable, I still can't keep tabs on it while performing.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Thanks Craig, and that's what I'm trying to get at. Do I even need compression at all or can I use the limiters I have already and just be done with it. My first goal is to protect my equipment. But I'm also trying to figure out what others are adding compression to, if they are at all. I mix from stage for small gigs, but usually have someone to mix for the larger gigs. In some respects, I'm trying to combat volume creep, but also keep my guitar player in a somewhat controlled volume area so that he can turn up and down a bit without drowning everyone else out. Since the subs are new, I don't know how much low end I'll need to control, yet. Mixing from stage is tough because the ears tend to get numb and while we're getting better about keeping volume reasonable, I still can't keep tabs on it while performing.

 

 

 

Compression is not necessary...it's an artistic control. When the ratio used gets up around 10:1, compression is then generally considered to be limiting, and is typically then considered to be a safety precaution. So no, you don't need to use compression if you don't feel it adds to the performance, but you should consider limiting and learn how to use it to protect the system.

[boomerweps]

Get the TC Electronics C300. Entry level from a respected brand.

 

It has many presets for specific instrument/vocals and can be used as is or modified by the front controls. Easy to use and gives you a good starting point for parameters.

 

Boomerweps

[kerf]

The C300 does look interesting. Thanks for the tips.

[Dogoth]

To echo what Craigv said in a nutshell. Usualy limiting is used for protection against overload where as usualy compression is used as a mixing and production aid (If used properly (again usualy inserted on specific channels) it can make a mix sound smoother and more polished. If used improperly it can make a mix sound squashed, dull and lifeless (sometimes the best choice is no compression at all)).

[Crownman]

Personally, I use a 3 band Aphex Dominator comp on the main out. That way the entire mix doesn't drop out on the frequencies that don't need to be compressed.

 

A cheapo Behringer comp on each monitor out

 

Same comps on each vocal channel and one on the bass.

 

Behringer gates on the kick and all toms.

 

I know a lot of people frown on the Behringers but for me they've been great units.

 

I like having the compressors in there also as another gain stage. If a vocal isn't quite giving me what I need I don't have to push the gain up or hit the fader harder, i just boost the output of the inserted comp and bam, I have the level I need.

 

I also have another Behringer 2 channel comp that the main signal goes through after exiting the Dominator. I don't use any compression on it at all, it's simply there as another gain stage if I need more oomph for the main signal without pushing the board harder.

[JIM683]

I own several of the DBX comps and one of the C300. The C300 would be a good unit for someone just starting out using compressors. The DBX I use have an auto function that sets the attack and release parameters for you.

 

I really like the C300 and will probably buy more in the future. it is very simple to set up and use, plus one of the knobs lets you set how much of the compressed sound goes to the mix, ie you can mix the compressed and uncompressed sounds together, works well.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Personally, I use a 3 band Aphex Dominator comp on the main out. That way the entire mix doesn't drop out on the frequencies that don't need to be compressed. A cheapo Behringer comp on each monitor out Same comps on each vocal channel and one on the bass. Behringer gates on the kick and all toms. I know a lot of people frown on the Behringers but for me they've been great units. I like having the compressors in there also as another gain stage. If a vocal isn't quite giving me what I need I don't have to push the gain up or hit the fader harder, i just boost the output of the inserted comp and bam, I have the level I need. I also have another Behringer 2 channel comp that the main signal goes through after exiting the Dominator. I don't use any compression on it at all, it's simply there as another gain stage if I need more oomph for the main signal without pushing the board harder.

 

 

Compression on monitors can adversely affect the amount of gain before feedback, to the extent of gain reduction due to compression. If you've got to make up 3dB of gain, that's about what you'll wind up losing before feedback is a problem.

 

The same issue could be a factor in using the compressor as an extra gain stage. It would probably be more effective to lessen compression, and gain makeup, and take your gain elsewhere in the signal chain.

[twostone]

"When in doubt leave it out" is my motto, comp/limiters is the most misunderstood processor out there most folks think their bass enhancers but in reality there's just for more dynamic control for spikes and peaks. Their great for screaming vocals also work great for kick and bass and usually their used on the inserts of the mixers I would never comp the whole mix live but in recording you betcha.

[Crownman]

 

Compression on monitors can adversely affect the amount of gain before feedback, to the extent of gain reduction due to compression. If you've got to make up 3dB of gain, that's about what you'll wind up losing before feedback is a problem. The same issue could be a factor in using the compressor as an extra gain stage. It would probably be more effective to lessen compression, and gain makeup, and take your gain elsewhere in the signal chain.

 

 

The compression on the monitors is minimal at best. 99.9% of the time they aren't compressing anthing at all. However, with the different types of bands we encounter it's nice to have them there if needed. So we leave them in the chain.

 

AS far as using the extra compressor as a gain stage goes, I can see where you're coming from. From what I wrote it could sound as if I hit the compressors pretty hard and need more level, that's not the case. Basically, I rather run the board a little lower so that I have the headroom to push it hard when I need to. I've seen too many guys almost run the board at max and then when they get a large & loud crowd they end up maxing the board out and the sound get's crappy. I want plenty of headroom.