How much do you charge?

[deltaleader]

As a new guy just getting in to doing live sound work. I am curious to know what other sound pros charge for live gigs? Are they about the same as the local DJ rates?

 

Basically, I am working on doing exclusively live sound work in my area for a few bands. These gigs can range from Clubs to small outdoor events, weddings and even corporate events. I would setup and run the PA during these performances. So should I look at flat rates, % of cover. etc. Kind of looking to see what others do here...

[Craig Vecchione]

 

As a new guy just getting in to doing live sound work. I am curious to know what other sound pros charge for live gigs? Are they about the same as the local DJ rates? Basically, I am working on doing exclusively live sound work in my area for a few bands. These gigs can range from Clubs to small outdoor events, weddings and even corporate events. I would setup and run the PA during these performances. So should I look at flat rates, % of cover. etc. Kind of looking to see what others do here...

 

 

There was a similar thread yesterday, and one guy's getting $800-$1200CDN for a 500-person club show with MI-grade gear. That's rare. On the bottom end, bar gigs can pay $100 or less for a small setup.

 

What it typically boils down to is getting whatever your local market will bear. Poke around and see what the gig pays for what gear, and determine what you can do to bring a little better service and get more business.

[flanc]

 

There was a similar thread yesterday, and one guy's getting $800-$1200CDN for a 500-person club show with MI-grade gear. That's rare. On the bottom end, bar gigs can pay $100 or less for a small setup. What it typically boils down to is getting whatever your local market will bear. Poke around and see what the gig pays for what gear, and determine what you can do to bring a little better service and get more business.

 

 

The medium club market around my parts pays $500 to $1000 a night to a band with a full PA...somewhere in the middle ($6-800)is common for a decent band. We carry our own PA but other bands tell me they pay from $200 - $350 a night for MI grade 5kw FOH stuff with 2-4 monitor mixes, two front tree's of par lights and an engineer.

 

As others have said, check what others are charging set your rates accordingly.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

What it typically boils down to is getting whatever your local market will bear. Poke around and see what the gig pays for what gear, and determine what you can do to bring a little better service and get more business.

 

I agree, you charge basically what the local market will bear, just like any other service based local business. Having said that, I've paid 50cents for a 12oz. draft beer in a resturant, and I've paid $7 for a 10oz. glass of the same brand of draft beer at a different resturant... however, I suspect the businesses profitted somewhat about the same percentage for the 50 beer and the $7 beer. This is where a business plan comes is a must-have item when considering a business venture. You gotta weigh and measure what it takes to be a player in the market, and then decide if it's worth it.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

then decide if it's worth it.

 

 

 

This is the part that so often escapes folks. Just because you've got the gear, the know-how to use it, and the desire to do same, does not at all mean anyone is willing to pay you enough to do so.

[deltaleader]

What it is meant by "MI Grade Gear"?

[flanc]

MI means "musical instrument" but is most commonly meant to imply "middle of the road", "weekend warrior" gear. You know, the stuff you see in the music stores. It's not a slight but rather an categorization of class. Seems like you have the "bottom feeder stuff" "MI Gear which probably has an upper and lower class) and the "touring/Pro" gear which probably also has various levels.

[deltaleader]

Cool! Thanks. I dont know what my stuff would be considered but I know it is not the bottom of the barrel...at least my pocket book doesnt think so. Basically, I have a A&H 14:4:2 mixer, 2 Mackie SRM450's for monitors and soon to have 2 QSC HPR153i's and 2 QSC HPR181i subs. Based on my research and experience on this forum. I think this will give me a good quality setup to work with in these venues I am targeting and considering my service oriented background and excellent feedback from bands I have worked with so far, I think I will be able to offer something others are missing in this area.

[Unalaska]

What the market will bear. It's easy to go out and buy a bunch of midline gear and suddenly charge 50% or 100% more than before. Then you'll find out quickly who is on board for the price and who for the quality. The gigs you get because you're cheap are the same gigs you'll lose when you charge more.

 

Just a little thing, step up to a 24-32 channel board with 4 monitor mixes and 6 wedges. You have to be capable of handling whatever comes down the pike. This doesn't have to be the expensive upgrade but it's a minimum for walking thru the door. Streamline everything else for quick setup and transport. etc etc etc...

p

[jasonbradley]

My friend is this area has the almost exact rig your talking about... he gets 200/night most of the time... once in awhile some "group" will have an event.. and they've got more money to spend.. he'll get 400 or so out them...

 

I've done both.. sound.. and performer... It does suck when the sound guy makes more then the musician.. but you can't survive without each other..

 

The sound guy spends a good chunk on his gear.. and his time running it.. musicians.. atleast good ones.. spend several hours a week practicing.... then developing a following... We've had lots of gigs where we pay the sound guy 250 and take home 90 bucks... Thats NOT fun!!!

[J.]

When my old band hired out our mostly MI grade system we typically netted three hundred a night. We brought Sonic 2x12/horn tops over 2x15 subs, four monitor wedges with two separate mixes, and a hodgepodge of homely rack gear. We had all the accessories too (SM58's, 57's, drum mics, mic stands, etc) so the band just had to bring their instruments and backline. We also had a large but rather ugly lighting truss that held sixteen par 64 cans and some light board that I can't remember. Usually we were paid to do medium sized bars and clubs.

 

Sometimes it just doesn't pay in some areas, especially when you've got guys with cheaper gear (or sometimes even the same quality gear as you) who are willing to work for peanuts. We were like a big fish in a small pond for awhile. A couple years after I left that band there was a guy with a better setup (still MI gear but newer and a little higher end) doing a full show for $100 per night. His stuff actually sounded pretty darn good too - better than our crap did.

 

I can't see myself ever doing sound for hire. I'd be into it because I was a musician that wanted to get my band's sound out there, not because I wanted to make a living or a secondary income. I don't envy the soundman's life at all.

[deltaleader]

Interesting...some of the smaller groups dont even get 250 total a night around here so that is where I was thinking a % of overall money coming in to the band. In anycase, it seems like it is all negotiable. In talking with a few buddies, they said a lot of the bands around here dont have a sound guy and just do it themselves. I guess I need to catch a few of them in the act and see if I can sell them a sound guy!

[AJ Ta Misery]

I run sound at a lot of the DIY (do it yourself) hardcore/punk shows around southwestern PA. Considering I know most of the promoters + I usually would be at the shows anyhow ... I charge $75 for doing a very basic vocals-only set up (for small venues) and $150 to bring all of my {censored} (basically just more power, miking the drums, and the subs and everything).

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

Interesting...some of the smaller groups dont even get 250 total a night around here so that is where I was thinking a % of overall money coming in to the band.

 

I'll suggest that a legit owner/operator enterprise, with no employees, will have a solvency point somewhere between $50K and $100K/yr. gross. By solvency point, that's what I call the point where all the bills are getting paid, the real depreciation of the gear is covered, and the owner/operator is making real profit that is at least equitable to what the wage would be for the type of work and hours if employeed at a legit job.

 

Taking your market ascertainment, and the low side of what I believe it takes to feed the bulldog... if you split the band's take 50/50... that's $125/show... you would only need to work approx. 400 shows/yr. to gross $50K.

[deltaleader]

Taking your market ascertainment, and the low side of what I believe it takes to feed the bulldog... if you split the band's take 50/50... that's $125/show... you would only need to work approx. 400 shows/yr. to gross $50K.

 

Good call...I guess it is a good thing it's not my primary income;) This whole thing started out ultimately as a hobby for me and based on feedback I have received, it's now becoming more of a hobby I can make a few $$ at. Quite frankly, I was getting tired of hearing bad sound from good bands because someone did not know what they were doing at the board, etc. So I figure instead of complaining about it, do something. So I did...

[Craig Vecchione]

Be careful with the % of take method. It's really easy to get screwed by unscrupulous bands, and that seems to be a lot more common than one would think...they tell you their take is $250, when they're actually getting $500, etc.....

 

Basically, set a minimum for which you are willing to go out and work, and stick with it. Working for too little does you no good....you don't profit, the bands and you competition figure you're a sucker, and getting more money will be even harder. Since this is not you primary income, staying home is better than going out for starvation wages.

[deltaleader]

 

Be careful with the % of take method. It's really easy to get screwed by unscrupulous bands, and that seems to be a lot more common than one would think...they tell you their take is $250, when they're actually getting $500, etc..... Basically, set a minimum for which you are willing to go out and work, and stick with it. Working for too little does you no good....you don't profit, the bands and you competition figure you're a sucker, and getting more money will be even harder. Since this is not you primary income, staying home is better than going out for starvation wages.

 

 

Good advice! That makes a lot of good sense to me. Thank you.

[6Imzadi]

 

I'll suggest that a legit owner/operator enterprise, with no employees, will have a solvency point somewhere between $50K and $100K/yr. gross. By solvency point, that's what I call the point where all the bills are getting paid, the real depreciation of the gear is covered, and the owner/operator is making real profit that is at least equitable to what the wage would be for the type of work and hours if employeed at a legit job. Taking your market ascertainment, and the low side of what I believe it takes to feed the bulldog... if you split the band's take 50/50... that's $125/show... you would only need to work approx. 400 shows/yr. to gross $50K.

 

 

Using this logic, I should get approximately 1040.00 per show if I worked once every weekend?

Or 520.00 per show if I worked both nights of the weekend every weekend?

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

Using this logic, I should get approximately 1040.00 per show if I worked once every weekend? Or 520.00 per show if I worked both nights of the weekend every weekend?

 

I was offering advice on what I know it takes to make a full-time business viable. $50K/yr. gross minimum for operating an equipment heavy service based business I don't believe is unrealistic. Let's look at some numbers:

 

1) Wages: $20K/yr. equates to $10/hr with a full time job (40hr/wk, 50wks/yr.). Surely any full-time job that involves WORK, and liability, and expertise, and supply your own tools, and find your own work is worth $10/hr?

 

2) Cost of maintaining equipment: I'd estimate a small operator with a reasonable 1 man rig could have somewhere in the neighborhood of $25K investment in gear that has possibly a 10yr. realistic life expectancy. I've found that for every dollar in depreciation, figure on a dollar of additional maintainance is a good rule of thumb for reasonable wear & tear. Add to that the cost of the investment money... I figure that costs 10% per year... either borrowed or lost investment opportunity. Cost of maintaining the equipment inventory could be somewhere around $7,500/yr.

 

3) Transportation: A reasonable 1 man show's vehicle could be something on the order of an Isuzu NPR. Those cost about 50cents/mile to own and operate. It would be reasonable to also have a 3/4 ton van for the runner rig... those cost about 30 cents/mile to own and operate. Let's say the two rigs rack up 10K miles/yr, split 50/50 between the two rigs. That's $4K/yr.

 

4) Insurance, property taxes, B&O taxes (or sales tax), etc... An commercial umbrella policy is gonna run maybe $1,500/yr for a small 1 man operation. Property taxes is gonna run maybe 1.5% assessed valuation ($750), B&0 taxes could run another 2-4%... lessay $2K. Total: $4K?

 

5) Shop rent & utilities: $1K/mo would be pretty cheap... but lessay you're working out of your garage. Still, the extra light bill, phone bill, etc... is gonna be an impact of $200/mo. Lessay $2,500 for this?

 

6) Subrentals: There's no doubt with a minimal $25K equipment inventory, and working the general market, some subrentals will be necessary... be it a power distro, or some wireless mics, a spotlight, etc... a $100 subrental once a month or so would be the minimum I'd expect for this. $1,250/yr?

 

7) Business cards, Yellowpage ad, website maintainance and general advertising & bookeeping... lessay $750/yr.

 

All adds up to $40K/yr. Admittedly, that's not $50K/yr, but then I'm probably low on most of this stuff... to say nothing of the fact that my "penciling it out" involves spending $25K+ to buy a $10/hr job.

 

So, yea... I'd say that if you're trying to support a full-time legit owner/operator local sound company business, and you're pulling down one to two jobs a week... then you're gonna need to charge somewhere around $400 - $800 per job to stay solvent. But then it's pretty tough to make a go of any full-time legitimate owner/operator business in the US only working one to two days a week... unless you're really good at what you do, and there's a demand for your special way of doing it, and very little completition. But, I'd say most of us small business owners are not so blessed, since I believe the national average in the US that small business owner/operaters work is somewhere around 80 hrs./wk.

[belayslave]

The above set-up is from my friends company based in Melbourne Australia. For this set-up he'll generally charge $550AUD. I ran a gig for him weekend before last and it was a slightly smaller set-up.

1xvox

2xDI (bass & keys)

1xmonitor send.

1x 16Ch mixer (A&H MixWiz)

TC M-One

EQ for FOH & monitor

2x JBL MPro's (no Subs)

1x JBL EON (monitor)

1x wireless mic (speeches)

1x fixed lecturn mic (speeches)

 

 

This gig was a wedding and i think we pulled $300AUD. 1 man set-up. The rig was left overnight after the live band had finished for use to play general music from an iPod. I left at that stage and returned to pick it up the next morning. Because of it's location (hour and a half drive from my residence) and the hours worked, if it was my company i would have been charging a fair amount more. But that's just me.

 

Advice as has been given: Don't under charge for your services. it's a hard industry and when you're forking out so much on gear, maintenance etc. you need to put a realistic value on yourself.

My friends company owns upwards of $90000AUD worth of gear, and does not make a profit. Has (in it's 3 years of operation) had only relatively few months of break even. Makes enough to make repayments for loans etc, but does not draw a personal wage from it.

[kevinnem]

we are doign most of our work in teh 2500 dollar range, the odd time we slut out for about 1800, I have one (and only 1) charity gig I do for 1300 each year (it is for my old engineering school, U of C. our larger gigs this year are in the 8,000-12,000 dollar range so far, however, stampead will likely top that.

 

Kev

[Speedhead]

 

we are doign most of our work in teh 2500 dollar range, the odd time we slut out for about 1800, I have one (and only 1) charity gig I do for 1300 each year (it is for my old engineering school, U of C. our larger gigs this year are in the 8,000-12,000 dollar range so far, however, stampead will likely top that. Kev

 

 

What type of system are you running to get in the $2500 range? And how big of a crew would you bring out? Size of show?

Thanks.

[agedhorse]

Oh the Calgery Stampede, warms the cockles of my heart!

[W. M. Hellinger]

Oh the Calgery Stampede, warms the cockles of my heart!

Ah yes... I believe that's one of the places I had an approx $7 draft beer (10oz.) Another was on Waikiki Beach. Either place... I'd suspect a production company doing "something" for a few days during the big celebration and grossing $8K to $12K for their activities would be pretty much the going rate.

[kevinnem]

 

What type of system are you running to get in the $2500 range? And how big of a crew would you bring out? Size of show? Thanks.

 

 

we run about 12,000 watts lighting +/- and about 15,000watts in to sound +/- that would be 6 bass bins 4 tops, we rent monitors for teh time beeing as we are still growing, and trying to find the money to buy our own. pm3000 at FOH no monitor mixer yet, still working on that one.

 

we have the parts for 2 more subs, then we will be building a line array I think.

 

we have also just aquired an old martin rig that will be basterised in to a working (lower end..) PA.

We now have intella beams, and are looking at adding some video.

 

Crew is 2-3 guys, and trucking is also a HUGE issue for us. We are renting trucks right now, and the cost, in time, is killing us.

 

We don't do corprate work yet, but are hopeing that we can grow in to that soon.

 

 

Kev.