Members fisherpard Posted March 20, 2007 Members Share Posted March 20, 2007 First off I know the "B" word brings out the worst in people so please be kind as I am a newbie. I bought a Berhinger PMP 5000 powered mixer that is supposed to be 400 watts per channel. Well if that is the case my unit is defective because I just don't seem to get that kind of power or even close to it. I am running it in Main/main position with two Behringer 15's speakers rated at 8 ohms. I think this is my problem and feel if they were 4 ohm speakers I would be getting more power. My question is if I piggy back two 8 ohm speakers which would bring me down to 4 ohms on each side would I see a improvement. Any advice on running, mixing or how to get more sound out of this mess without buying a external amp or powered speakers would be appreciated. Please don't make this a Behringer is crap thread because I made the mistake every newbie has was buy cheap when I should have saved my money.But for now how do I get the most out of what I have without breaking the bank?? thanks in advance,fisherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted March 20, 2007 Members Share Posted March 20, 2007 Ok..the spec's say this powered mixer puts out 215watts per channel at 8ohms. http://www.behringerdownload.de/PMP1000_3000_5000/PMP1000_565_567_ENG_Rev_A.pdf If you put to 8ohm speakers on one channel it would present the amp with a 4ohm load and receive 450watts. This 450 watts would be shared equally by the two speakers yielding 225watts per speaker. You would not be able to distinguish between 215watts and 225watts. I would suspect that 215watts into a reasonably efficient speaker should yield a decent amount of SPL (volume). Are you sure everything is configured properly. Behringer takes some shots around here for quality, but if everything is working properly, I'd suspect that you'd get a a decent amount of volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fisherpard Posted March 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Since I am a newbie, I might be pushing the gas to the floor while holding the brakes. Advice about the settings because I am very confused with all the different stuff. Right now I have the master at unity, each mic channel is a little above unity and the trim is over 3/4. We are in a sawmill lumber room around 14' by 10'.I would figure at that setting we should be blowing the door off but it is not extremely loud. Could all the thick would be absorbing the sound? I have not tried it outside to see what type of volumn I get there?/ thanks for any advice,fisherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LORDGOREKKK Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 I have a little practice PA in my room That has Less than half that wattage and is so clear and Can get real Real loud. Its a MP5Plus Peavey powered mixer pushing 150watts at 4 ohms out of one channel to two Peavey TSL1 8ohm speakers which in essence pushes aprox 75watts to each speaker. It sounds rediculously loud and still clear. Now back to your problem, As long as you have connected one speaker to each channel, it should work just as good or even better. Just out of curiousity, what speakers are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fisherpard Posted March 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Behringer Euro B12's I have a feeling that I have a faulty powered mixer. Going to check out this further. Please keep sending the advice so I can make educated choices! thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 21, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 It sounds as if you've got the gain structure adjusted well, and that's not a very big room. I'd guess as you are that it should be much louder than you describe, but that's of course a tough judgement to make without hearing it. FWIW, I've heard a lot of comments about various Behringer amps not putting out the wattage claimed when comapred against other like-rated gear, so perhaps the unit really doesn't do the 200+ watts it's rated for. This would not be a big surprise...the EE's who participate here have tested other brands and found similar shortcomings in output. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LORDGOREKKK Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Are these your Speakers? Cuz if they are, that should be just fine. http://www.behringer.com/B1220/index.cfm?lang=ENG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fisherpard Posted March 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 http://www.behringer.com/B212/index.cfm?lang=ENG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LORDGOREKKK Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Well those are still decent and for what your trying to achieve and fix thats perfect. Sorry if i couldnt be of more help to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 http://www.behringer.com/B212/index.cfm?lang=ENG 93dB sensitivity is very low for PA speakers. That would account for the lack of volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LORDGOREKKK Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Wow i completely forgot to check about that sorry he's got a big point about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 93dB sensitivity is very low for PA speakers. That would account for the lack of volume. Yes that is pretty low. So, it probably goes like this (correct me if I'm wrong guys): 1watt 93db10watts 99db100 watts 105db200 watts 108db That's not alot of volume! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Yes that is pretty low. So, it probably goes like this (correct me if I'm wrong guys):1watt 93db10watts 99db100 watts 105db200 watts 108dbThat's not alot of volume! Compare them to a Peavey PR12 with the same powered mixer: 1 watt 97db10watts 103db100watts 109db200watts 112db 6 db louder which should be perceived as double the volume! The reason I picked the Peavey is it similar in price. A Yorkville E12 has a sensitivity of 102db so it would reach a 117db using the same powered mixer....much louder (and a more expensive speaker) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Yes that is pretty low. So, it probably goes like this (correct me if I'm wrong guys):1watt 93db10watts 99db100 watts 105db200 watts 108dbThat's not alot of volume! Actually, you'd be looking at about 116 DB with 200 watts applied which is a bit better... Still, my home speakers (Axiom AX2+2) are rated at 93Db sensitivity and can handle 250 watts RMS and quite frankly, as good as they sound, they are not all that loud. An average PA speaker such as Yorkville's YX15 (99DB/w/m) would put out as much sound as the Behringer with only 60 watts applied, so that gives you a good idea of what the problem might be... Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Actually, you'd be looking at about 116 DB with 200 watts applied which is a bit better... Still, my home speakers (Axiom AX2+2) are rated at 93Db sensitivity and can handle 250 watts RMS and quite frankly, as good as they sound, they are not all that loud. An average PA speaker such as Yorkville's YX15 (99DB/w/m) would put out as much sound as the Behringer with only 60 watts applied, so that gives you a good idea of what the problem might be... Al Ok...I must have mixed up my forumlas. I'm pretty sure it's double the power and increase the SPL by 3 DB: 1 watt 93db2 watts 96db4 watts 99db8 watts 102db16 watts 105db32 watts 108db64 watss 111db128 watts 114db200 watts 116db (ish) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Ok...I must have mixed up my forumlas. I'm pretty sure it's double the power and increase the SPL by 3 DB: 1 watt 93db 2 watts 96db 4 watts 99db 8 watts 102db 16 watts 105db 32 watts 108db 64 watss 111db 128 watts 114db 200 watts 116db (ish) Now you've got it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SoundMan Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 I have personally tested a PMH3000, that claimed 400 watts per channel. The best I could get was about 280 watts per channel into 4 ohms. The only thing I can guess, is they are rating the amps at 10%THD. That would boost the power ratings considerably. After reading the specs, it appears they have revised them for this newer model. The PMP5000 claims 450 per channel at 1%THD. I have not checked one of these, to see if they actually upgraded the amps/supply or not. I know that doesn't help you much, maybe someone else thinking about buying one. Obviously, the 8 ohm load is a problem. Fix that, and improve your speakers sensitivity, and maybe you can live with this mixer. SoundMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 I have personally tested a PMH3000, that claimed 400 watts per channel. The best I could get was about 280 watts per channel into 4 ohms. The only thing I can guess, is they are rating the amps at 10%THD. That would boost the power ratings considerably. After reading the specs, it appears they have revised them for this newer model. The PMP5000 claims 450 per channel at 1%THD. I have not checked one of these, to see if they actually upgraded the amps/supply or not. I know that doesn't help you much, maybe someone else thinking about buying one. Obviously, the 8 ohm load is a problem. Fix that, and improve your speakers sensitivity, and maybe you can live with this mixer. SoundMan So...I guess low power from the amp AND low sensitivity of the speakers = LOW SPL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 I have personally tested a PMH3000, that claimed 400 watts per channel. The best I could get was about 280 watts per channel into 4 ohms. The only thing I can guess, is they are rating the amps at 10%THD. That would boost the power ratings considerably.SoundMan It's always interesting to see a lab test of a competitor's product. It's even more interesting for us, who use this equipment every day and usually only have the specs provided by the company on which to base our comparison. It would be good if it were required for all companies' products to be tested this way before they can advertise their specs. This type of testing could also convince those considering buying Nady, Pyramid, Behringer type products of the advantages of paying the extra dollars for a quality product - or at least allow buyers to compare the same specs... Thanks Soundman. Don't hesitate in sharing if you've done other testing on other products that produced somewhat surprising results (if you are allowed?) ... Al Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Right now I have the master at unity, each mic channel is a little above unity and the trim is over 3/4. Trim for what? Mic channel is at 3/4? You mean 3 o'clock for a mic? That seems really really hot. What mics, mic cables and are you using the XLR input or 1/4 input. Something doesn't add up. The EQ on the board is bypassed? All EQ faders down? Are the channels being bussed to main L/R (not to a subgroup)? The board prolly only does 120 watts in a downwind @ 8 ohms BUT that's prolly all you're gonna need anyway. Sensitivity aside something is wrong with your gain structure.p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted March 21, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted March 21, 2007 Trim for what? Mic channel is at 3/4? You mean 3 o'clock for a mic? That seems really really hot.What mics, mic cables and are you using the XLR input or 1/4 input. Something doesn't add up. The EQ on the board is bypassed? All EQ faders down? Are the channels being bussed to main L/R (not to a subgroup)?The board prolly only does 120 watts in a downwind @ 8 ohms BUT that's prolly all you're gonna need anyway. Sensitivity aside something is wrong with your gain structure.p I'm assuming trim at 3/4 = the channel gain is about 75% of it's maximum. That, with the channel fader at unity, and the master at unity, should result in a pretty damned hot signal out of the mixer with almost any half-assed mic. His problem should be feedback, not too little volume, but I doubt there's anything more he can do with gain structure to get more volume...max the channel gain?.....max the channel to +10dB?...max the master? It's entirely possible the unit is defective, it's entirely possible the low power output coupled with a speaker that's only rated 93dB and 125w continuous power is not doing much. Could be D: All of the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fisherpard Posted March 21, 2007 Author Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 http://www.americanmusical.com/item--i-PEV-PR12N.html I could not find any data on the SP or Sensitivity but from past experience Peavey has always seemed loud compared to others. Thanks for all the advice. By the way, I have even tried the master at nearly all the way, the mic channel almost maxed out and the trim almost all the way. Louder but not uncomfortable in the small room. I am using SHure 58's and 57's and Sennheiser 835's (sp). The mic cables are balanced XLR and about 15'. The speaker cables are 12 gauge Speakon about 20 feet. Unless I am doing something that would be like putting the gas to the floor while holding the breaks, I can only think that my mixer is faulty. I think I will send it back for a swap unless someone can tell me something I am doing wrong. I would like to be able to run my master at unity and my mics a little less than unity and my trim right before clipping in the small practice room. That way I would know I had the extra if we were playing a medium venue otherwise I am going to have to make some changes. again thanks for all the info and not letting this thread turn into a Behringer is crap deal ( which I might agree ) however that is what I have to work with right now. I have the knowledge now to save my money until I can afford better equipment. fisherman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SoundMan Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Oh yeah, the other thing I learned about the Behringer. To get full power from the amps, you have to run the mixer up to clipping. Well, actually the mixer clips before the amplifier. So yes, it would seem like you are running the mixer at maximum gain. SoundMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 I can only think that my mixer is faulty.fisherman If that's what you came away with after reading all the replies, I'd suggest you reread the thread. The speakers are the problem. No matter what you plug into them, they will seriously limit how loud you can get. Keep the mixer, get better speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 21, 2007 Members Share Posted March 21, 2007 Is it possible that there is an input pad on each channel??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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