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An indication of someone with a lot to learn?


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I recently played in a show that had four bands. One of the bands was supplying the sound and their usual guy that ran it. Not to far into the show I'm noticing that the vocals just sound bad and the soundman seems oblivious. I'm by no means any kind of expert but I've been messing with this stuff over twenty five years so I wandered over to the board to peek at what this guy was doing. When I looked at the vocal channels this guy had the three band eq on each channel boosted somewhere between 3-6 db. Looking at that right away told me that this guy had a lot to learn about running sound.

 

After a while longer I asked one of the guys in the other band who the guy was who was running the sound and he tells me, "Oh that's Marty. He used to do sound for the Allman Brothers. He knows a little bit about what he's doing (sarcasm).:freak: ":eek:

 

I had to bite my tongue when I heard that. We were the last band to go on that night and Marty was a nice enough guy when I was introduced to him and he asked me if there was anything special I would like. I politley suggested that he cut the low end on the vocal channels about 3 - 6 db to get rid of the mud and asked him to return the mid to center position where I know it would at least be an improvement over where he had it. We played a great set and I don't think anyone would have argued that we were the best sounding band in the bunch because of the simple suggestions.

 

Just wondering if you guys would agree that it's a pretty fair assessment immediately, when you see something like that...all boost and no cuts? Or have you ever been in a situation where the system/room/mix warranted such settings?

 

Just curious,

Kevin

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Just as long as he didn't mention "The Sweet Spot", you were lucky:D

 

 

Considerably raising all three of three EQ controls is sort of like raising the gain control, but with some phase errors thrown in for good measure. I've long since stopped trying to figure out why some people do the things they do...logic defies most of what goes on in the world, I'm convinced.

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Just as long as he didn't mention "The Sweet Spot", you were lucky:D



Considerably raising all three of three EQ controls is sort of like raising the gain control, but with some phase errors thrown in for good measure. I've long since stopped trying to figure out why some people do the things they do...logic defies most of what goes on in the world, I'm convinced.

 

I was told many years ago to start from flat and CUT if I have to make any adjustments. What is the "sweet spot"? Only thing I can think of was the other night when Meg and I kissed and I ran my hands down.... :cool::love:

 

V.

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I was told many years ago to start from flat and CUT if I have to make any adjustments. What is the "sweet spot"? Only thing I can think of was the other night when Meg and I kissed and I ran my hands down....
:cool::love:

V.

 

 

Sweet Spot: someone who shall remain nameless insisted that mixer preamps had a sweet-spot, and in order to get a decent mix one had to constantly ride the gain controls in order to keep the preamps there.:rolleyes:

 

What you were told about EQ is right.

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And those who designed said preamps had no isea what he was talking about either!

 

Those little observations may tell you a whole lot about the experience and the liklihood for consistent success... it's called reading between the lines, which is where a lot of important information is found.

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Originally Posted by
Kevin McCarthy


We played a great set and I don't think anyone would have argued that we were the best sounding band in the bunch because of the simple suggestions.

 

 

What about Marty? Did he think that your suggestions were an improvement? How do you know it sounded better? Did you listen to the PA after the eq had been changed?

 

Without actually being at the gig you mention it is impossible to say whether the settings were appropriate. Marty might have thought his choice of settings were preferable. We might agree with him or we might not. He might have reset the eq how he wanted after you went on stage; it would be difficult to know from the stage. There might have been some other factor in causing a bad vocal sound.

 

 

Originally Posted by
Kevin McCarthy


Just wondering if you guys would agree that it's a pretty fair assessment immediately, when you see something like that...all boost and no cuts? Or have you ever been in a situation where the system/room/mix warranted such settings?

 

 

With a fixed frequency three band eq you have effective control over 5 bands. If you cut all three controllable bands the frequencies that fall between them are relatively boosted. If you boost all three controllable bands, then conversely the frequencies that fall between them are relatively cut. It is not inconceivable that the latter situation might give a better sound than the former. Different mixers have different eq topologies. The same

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Here's another variable...many folks (myself...maybe you) have midrange and mid upper range frequency hearing losses for a variety of reasons. Mine came from flying in a B52..yours may be from playing in a band with high stage volume...others shoot guns without adequate hearing protection...still others work in factories...etc. If the sound guy has significant hearing loss in these ranges, he may boost them and cause a very harsh sound....any variation of this is possible based on your hearing losses and his. It may sound fine to him, and only a very large number of complaints would ever convince him otherwise. I tend to boost the treble on my personal music when i listen, but I'm aware of this and put it back flat when others are listening too...like in home theater, etc. What's "perfect" to me is a tad "harsh" to my wife...so I obviously live with alot of dull muddy movie music LOL.

 

God bless!

 

-Ron

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I have boosted EG on all of the freq bands on a strip EQ but rarely. Yes I agree that I would tend to cut offensive stuff rather than boost but I don't think there is any magic EQ spec that will work in all circumstances (If you'd have said he boosted 15 db on all bands I'd say that's definatly a warning of incopmetance) however If there was bottom boosted and things sounded muddy then you were probably right (he needed a little help mixing).

 

By the way I'd bet there's at least 100 sound guys out there who claim to have mixed for the Allman brothers (or pick your group). I generaly take this info with a grain of salt and listen to what the mix sounds like now (that's all that really matters).

 

For what It's worth anyone can have a bad day (maybe he had a head cold and couldn't hear what he was doing but for what ever reason it sounded like he did need a little help. It sounds like you handled the situation correctly and politely (always a great way to get things done).

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Originally Posted by
congaron

If the sound guy has significant hearing loss in these ranges, he may boost them and cause a very harsh sound....

 

 

This is true and a good point. From what I have read most hearing damage occurs in the 2-4KHz region where the ear is most sensitive. Boosting these frequencies to compensate creates that harsh sound. I

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Experience and skill level are completely independent. To me, experience is as much of an indication of skill level as eye color. Many people that have run sound for 20-30 or more years still suck at it yet they keep touting their experience as if it matters while some others with the same tenure are extremely successful. Show me results and I'll raise my opinion of your skill level.

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Experience and skill level are completely independent. To me, experience is as much of an indication of skill level as eye color. Many people that have run sound for 20-30 or more years still suck at it yet they keep touting their experience as if it matters while some others with the same tenure are extremely successful. Show me results and I'll raise my opinion of your skill level.

 

 

 

This, plus the fact that everyone has a different idea of what "perfect sound" is. The combination of individual opinion and hearing loss, or even just hearing fatigue towards the end of a long show can result in some really "unusual" mixes.

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I agree. Give the same band 10 different sound men, and they will come up with 10 different mixes. Neither necessarily better or worse than the other, just different from each other. As long as the mix compliments the music, and everything is balanced appropriately for the music, then the mix is acceptable.

 

I have been to shows that (never mind the eq) the mix was balanced innappropriately for the act. Example: A funk/disco band balanced like a hard rock band or a Jimmy Buffett cover band mixed like a dance/funk band.

 

Even though I haven't been mixing for long, I do believe that you have to taylor your mix to the style of music.

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When I evaluate a mix, I look at the basic components, how things fit together, the balance and intelligibility. Everything else is an artistic judgement.

 

That said, there are a lot of folks that haven't mastered the basics who are wandering off on artistic tangents. I say master the basics BEFORE attempting anything else and your mixes will be far better because of it. Doesn't matter that you have the perfect compressor on the backup vocal if you can't hear the acosutic guitar.

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Fatigue is definitely a factor that you have to take into account. If the mix engineer is in the later part of a long tour or several successive nights of loud shows, they have to be very careful that they don't get to bright for everyone else. Thats where its nice to have a good objective measuring tool like SMAART to reference what you're hearing to what the measurements say.

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Fatigue is definitely a factor that you have to take into account. If the mix engineer is in the later part of a long tour or several successive nights of loud shows, they have to be very careful that they don't get to bright for everyone else. Thats where its nice to have a good objective measuring tool like SMAART to reference what you're hearing to what the measurements say.

 

I have that...it's called a wife...the voice of reason...of course it's all too loud as well. ;)

 

God bless!

 

-Ron

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True enough.

 

Two years ago, my band needed a sound guy for a few events. One's a friend of (and lives across the street from) the bassist. He did sound for years for various local acts.

 

We had him come down to rehearsal twice. Man, the mix he provided was just dreadful; you could hear in his mix the years of fatigue in his ears. We opted not to use him.

 

Experience and skill level are completely independent. To me, experience is as much of an indication of skill level as eye color. Many people that have run sound for 20-30 or more years still suck at it yet they keep touting their experience as if it matters while some others with the same tenure are extremely successful. Show me results and I'll raise my opinion of your skill level.

 

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I always keep earplugs with me, and when I mix a rock show that needs to be loud, I get the mix where I want it, then pop in the ear plugs to protect my hearing. And I pop them out from time to time to check that something hasn't gone south in the mix, and then back in they go.

 

Basically, I refuse to go deaf doing something I enjoy as a second job.

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I always keep earplugs with me, and when I mix a rock show that needs to be loud, I get the mix where I want it, then pop in the ear plugs to protect my hearing. And I pop them out from time to time to check that something hasn't gone south in the mix, and then back in they go.


Basically, I refuse to go deaf doing something I enjoy as a second job.

 

I'm sorry..could you please repeat that..I couldn't hear you!! :D

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