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Q: mixing turbosound powered speaks w/eaw sb1000

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  • Q: mixing turbosound powered speaks w/eaw sb1000

    so,

    we are having an easter sunrise service using our portable stereo PA system in our outdoor 1000+ seat amphitheater, featuring doyle dykes (solo gtr) and brenton brown (band)

    4 x turbosound 445DP digital 3 way powered compact mains:

    COMPONENTS
    1 x co-axial 12
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  • #2
    Let the subs do their job...50Hz would render them almost useless.....try crossing at around 100Hz, with a 24dB slope, and experiment up and down a bit.
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    • #3
      Let the subs do their job...50Hz would render them almost useless.....try crossing at around 100Hz, with a 24dB slope, and experiment up and down a bit.



      thanks for the reply!

      pardon the misunderstanding-
      i wasn't suggesting a crossover point per se, just adding a hi pass to the 445DPs

      in my mind, raising the hi pass on the turbos would free up some headroom on the low freq amp built in to the speaker, allow the low freq driver to work less "incumbered", and reduce some potential phasing between the subs and lows on the mains


      there is a mode switch on the turbosounds that i just found out that does roughly the same thing as i was suggesting---sets a hi pass internally at 125hz, designed to work in tandem with their subs recommended for use wth these mains.

      but neither the speaker nor the included literature indicated where the frequency point was on the hi pass switch, so i had to contact the manufacturer.



      any other suggestions?
      <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/PeaceMaker/PeaceMaker1.mp3" target="_blank"><font color="red">Mojave Peacemaker OWNS</font></a><br />
      <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/FileSharing3.html" target="_blank"><b>My Mojave Clips</b></a><br />
      <a href="http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/just_plain_stupid/Laughing_Interview/" target="_blank">funny video</a><br />
      <br />
      <a href="http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/rehears1.mp3" target="_blank">TEDM covers &quot;pull me under&quot;</a></div>

      Comment


      • #4
        thanks for the reply!

        pardon the misunderstanding-
        i wasn't suggesting a crossover point per se, just adding a hi pass to the 445DPs

        in my mind, raising the hi pass on the turbos would free up some headroom on the low freq amp built in to the speaker, allow the low freq driver to work less "incumbered", and reduce some potential phasing between the subs and lows on the mains


        there is a mode switch on the turbosounds that i just found out that does roughly the same thing as i was suggesting---sets a hi pass internally at 125hz, designed to work in tandem with their subs recommended for use wth these mains.

        but neither the speaker nor the included literature indicated where the frequency point was on the hi pass switch, so i had to contact the manufacturer.



        any other suggestions?


        I'm more confused now. What frequency range is going to the subs, and what frequency range is going to the mid-highs? As worded, it sounds as if you've got the mid-high's handling the the same LF signal as the subs. Phasing problems would not be a surprise if this was so, and indeed a lot of amp power is being 'wasted' on the mid-highs trying to handle that.
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        • #5
          In a nutshell, NO.

          Looking at the power bandwidth product of the system, and the fact that you may not have enough PA for the job depending on the SPL needed towards the back of the audience area, I think you will need every bit of output the top boxes can provide. The 50Hz LF limit of the top boxes are most likely at least -6dB (and probably more like -10dB) lower sensitivity than the meat and potatoes bandwidth wher ethe bx is most sensitive. So, throwing scarce resources (power) to a boxes least efficient reproduction range is pretty much like throwing it away considering you have the subs which are most efficient/sensitive between about 40Hz and 100+Hz.

          Cross the system over around 100-125Hz and be sure you have a HPF on the subs at about 35Hz and that's about all you can expect performance-wise from the system. Also watch the 9001 on those subs, certainly don't bridge it (impedance issues) and even one box per channel could cause damage under an unexpected accident of if you find yourself without enough sub for the job and in a fleeting moment of lacking judgement push the snot out of the cabinets.

          Comment


          • #6
            I'm more confused now. What frequency range is going to the subs, and what frequency range is going to the mid-highs? As worded, it sounds as if you've got the mid-high's handling the the same LF signal as the subs. Phasing problems would not be a surprise if this was so, and indeed a lot of amp power is being 'wasted' on the mid-highs trying to handle that.


            thanks again, and i'm sorry for any vagueness on my part.

            the system was purchased and set up by an a/v company, but i was not present for the fine tuning of the dsp for the amphitheater, and then the last time it was used, we had another engineer on board.

            from what i can tell, the system is feeding main L/R out into channels 1 & 2 of the ashly 4.24C, and aux sub output is feeding input 3 of the ashly.

            outputs 1 and 2 of the 4.24C feed the mains.

            from memory, there was a 10:1 comp on the mains and a brickwall limit on the subs.

            subs are being fed by the 9001, 1 side of the amp per cab, and there was a hi pass on the subs set at 29.? hz and a few para eq bumps in the 50 and 80 hz ranges, but i didn't find any setting limiting the mids/highs from feeding the subs.

            there was a hi pass on the mains set low---35hz?---and a few para eq notches in the 400-500hz and in the 4k range.

            my primary question was concerning the hi pass freq point.
            <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/PeaceMaker/PeaceMaker1.mp3" target="_blank"><font color="red">Mojave Peacemaker OWNS</font></a><br />
            <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/FileSharing3.html" target="_blank"><b>My Mojave Clips</b></a><br />
            <a href="http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/just_plain_stupid/Laughing_Interview/" target="_blank">funny video</a><br />
            <br />
            <a href="http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/rehears1.mp3" target="_blank">TEDM covers &quot;pull me under&quot;</a></div>

            Comment


            • #7
              Sounds very wrong, perhaps you are missing the x-over filters location in the DSP. Often, translating the layout of a DSP signal flow can be confusing depending on the programmer's technique. There should be a 100Hz or so LPF on the sub outs and a corresponding 100Hz or so HPF on the top cabinet outs. This prevents build-up that would occur where the bands otherwise overlap. This would also cause some constructive/destructive interference and comb filtering where the two signals acoustically overlap.

              Comment


              • #8
                Sounds very wrong, perhaps you are missing the x-over filters location in the DSP. Often, translating the layout of a DSP signal flow can be confusing depending on the programmer's technique. There should be a 100Hz or so LPF on the sub outs and a corresponding 100Hz or so HPF on the top cabinet outs. This prevents build-up that would occur where the bands otherwise overlap. This would also cause some constructive/destructive interference and comb filtering where the two signals acoustically overlap.



                exactly!!! so i'm not going nuts....

                and that is exactly the info i was looking for in the ashley; low pass to limit the hi freqs from the subs at the upper limits of their reproductive range, and a corresponding hi pass on the mains that was relative to the low pass point on the subs. started to make me wonder if there was some new reason to stack low frequencies as indicated by the settings...

                i swear i checked every possible angle on the ashly...looked through all the crossover/parametric eq/pass filter programming on each input/output...and no dice.

                perhaps the last guy on the system did some *improvements*:freak:

                then again, i recently went through our indoor system's soundweb dsp, tuned by the same a/v company, checking values and looking for tiny tweaks as the weather heats up, and i found a hi pass filter on our indoor SB 850 subs set to 100 hz as well as a subsequent L-R crossover on the subs set to hi pass at 35hz and low pass at 200 hz @24db slope...which didn't seem right to me so i bypassed the 100hz hi pass

                i wish i had guys like you and craig on hand while i went through junk like this!

                i'll start at a 100hz crossover point between subs and mains and scoot around from there

                does the 10:1 comp on the mains and infinity to 1 on the subs seem right?

                finally, any tips on more punch from the subs?


                THANK YOU!
                <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/PeaceMaker/PeaceMaker1.mp3" target="_blank"><font color="red">Mojave Peacemaker OWNS</font></a><br />
                <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/FileSharing3.html" target="_blank"><b>My Mojave Clips</b></a><br />
                <a href="http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/just_plain_stupid/Laughing_Interview/" target="_blank">funny video</a><br />
                <br />
                <a href="http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/rehears1.mp3" target="_blank">TEDM covers &quot;pull me under&quot;</a></div>

                Comment


                • #9
                  i'll start at a 100hz crossover point between subs and mains and scoot around from there

                  does the 10:1 comp on the mains and infinity to 1 on the subs seem right?

                  I'd start at 90hz and then keep an eye on the amps to see how the power division is working out and walk out front to see how it sounds.

                  6:1 should do the job. I'd rather see that and pull your foot off the gas a little, rather than mash the throttle at 10:1 and squash the life out of the dynamics. It's not about how loud the system can be pushed, but more about getting impressive dynamics and clarity.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    this is exactly why DSP can be big problems. There are many places to screw up, and when programming you need to be very careful, almost anal.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I'd start at 90hz and then keep an eye on the amps to see how the power division is working out and walk out front to see how it sounds.

                      6:1 should do the job. I'd rather see that and pull your foot off the gas a little, rather than mash the throttle at 10:1 and squash the life out of the dynamics. It's not about how loud the system can be pushed, but more about getting impressive dynamics and clarity.



                      good points.

                      the turbosounds actually have built in protection limiters in them with a clip indicator on both the high and the low power amp, but i set a output limit of +5db on the ashly feeding the mains as well. so i think relaxing the ratio is a safe idea as well.

                      the subs thing is more touchy, especially because sometimes it seems much harder to hear slight fluctuations in the low frequency bands.

                      due to the configuration of our system, we have a swappable multipin drive cable at the amp rack to change the feed to the power amps, sourced from either our indoor FOH, or outdoor FOH, and a subsequent socapex cable from power amp outputs, feeding either the indoor subs and monitors, or outdoor subs and monitors.

                      kinda confusing...i might need to post some pictures, which might be kinda cool for folks looking in to this thread as well...
                      <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/PeaceMaker/PeaceMaker1.mp3" target="_blank"><font color="red">Mojave Peacemaker OWNS</font></a><br />
                      <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/FileSharing3.html" target="_blank"><b>My Mojave Clips</b></a><br />
                      <a href="http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/just_plain_stupid/Laughing_Interview/" target="_blank">funny video</a><br />
                      <br />
                      <a href="http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/rehears1.mp3" target="_blank">TEDM covers &quot;pull me under&quot;</a></div>

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        this is exactly why DSP can be big problems. There are many places to screw up, and when programming you need to be very careful, almost anal.


                        i agree a million percent

                        i try to be as meticulous and methodical as sanity allows

                        the one drawback to the ashly is that we are not set up to run the software for it so i have to navigate through the unit's onboard menu screen, which is not that bad, but it does have some layered nooks and crannies that one could potentially skip over if not careful.

                        our indoor soundweb is linked to a pc so we have full visual confirmation of all matrix and control point info at a glance...way nicer.
                        <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/PeaceMaker/PeaceMaker1.mp3" target="_blank"><font color="red">Mojave Peacemaker OWNS</font></a><br />
                        <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/FileSharing3.html" target="_blank"><b>My Mojave Clips</b></a><br />
                        <a href="http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/just_plain_stupid/Laughing_Interview/" target="_blank">funny video</a><br />
                        <br />
                        <a href="http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/rehears1.mp3" target="_blank">TEDM covers &quot;pull me under&quot;</a></div>

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          That is... when the Soundweb doesn't crash.

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                          • #14
                            So the bottom line is that the subs should be handling somewhere in the range of 50Hz to 100Hz, and the mid-highs should see 100Hz and up. You can move the crossover point up or down 10Hz or so to determine if there's any improvement. The subs bandwidth would be relatively narrow but for live sound 50Hz is usually quite sufficient and will conserve power for the usable bandwidth.
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                            • #15
                              That is... when the Soundweb doesn't crash.


                              yikes!!!

                              yes, that is always a sobering thought. and yes it has happened, but not in a totally dramatic default reset...it manifests itself in a few random settings changing values...and frankly it's probably more difficult to troubleshoot when that happens because it is so subtle.

                              i have made it a point to periodically go down through the settings and check to make sure all systems are go.

                              we have backup disks of the settings, as well as the files loaded on other computers on site.
                              <div class="signaturecontainer"><a href="http://www.mojaveampworks.com/5SoundClips/PeaceMaker/PeaceMaker1.mp3" target="_blank"><font color="red">Mojave Peacemaker OWNS</font></a><br />
                              <a href="http://homepage.mac.com/mentoneman/FileSharing3.html" target="_blank"><b>My Mojave Clips</b></a><br />
                              <a href="http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/just_plain_stupid/Laughing_Interview/" target="_blank">funny video</a><br />
                              <br />
                              <a href="http://www.tedm.com/mp3s/rehears1.mp3" target="_blank">TEDM covers &quot;pull me under&quot;</a></div>

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