How to get vocals to "fit" better in the mix?

[Greazygeo]

We have been using our system for a couple years now and have it dialed in pretty well. The instuments (guitars/bass and drums) sound great. We have plenty of headroom / volume. My problem is with the vocals, they just don't seem to "blend" for some reason. We can hear everything and its understandable, so its not a volume issue or the stage sound overpowering the pa. The vocals just seem to be sort of disconnected to the music if that makes sense.

 

Is it eq-ing or compression or different mics? My system is pretty basic: Yorkville EF500P/ LS800P, Mackie 1604VLZ, DBX DriveRack PA. We use Sennheiser 835's for the vocal mics.

 

I use a tiny bit of compression on the kick and toms (with some gating) and once in awhile on the snare. The Driverack is just for the x-over, main eq and in some rooms the anti-feedback.

 

Thanks for any feedback.....

[agedhorse]

Sometimes it comes down to vocal technique. Singing together, parts fitting rather than a bunch of singers just singing along to the band.

 

A few good examples are the Beatles, The Byrds, CCR, and CSN&Y... vocal arrangements that fit around the music and well executed together as parts. Listen to some music form the 50's and early 60's, the ensemble style arrangements were much more common then.

[bassred]

That is a tough one..

[kevinnem]

I have a few ideas you could try.

 

one, .. mixing the vocals in ... try this procedure.

 

first flatten out the entire eq, for the vocal channels. now mix them in using only the level... spend some time on it, and mix there relative level best you can. Next use the high pass filters , adding them in to make them sound better. Then start to tweak the eq. For eq, try to find the 1 part of the vocal that is to loud, .. that one part that you wish you had less of.... then cut it out.

 

You can also adjust the 31 band EQ on the drive rack, this may be a better place to "suck out" that area of the vocal you don't like as its filter is 1/3 octave wide, and your parametric eq on the board is about 1-1.5 octave.

 

One other thing you can try is some very light compression with in the DBX. Try some different attach / release times, but use a very shallow attack 1.5/1 and only let it do about 3 db of compression. you may find this "mixes" everything together in a nice way. You may find differently.

 

Are you running mono by chance? There are some other more advanced techniques you can use if your running a mono system.

 

Kev.

[Greazygeo]

 

I have a few ideas you could try. one, .. mixing the vocals in ... try this procedure. first flatten out the entire eq, for the vocal channels. now mix them in using only the level... spend some time on it, and mix there relative level best you can. Next use the high pass filters , adding them in to make them sound better. Then start to tweak the eq. For eq, try to find the 1 part of the vocal that is to loud, .. that one part that you wish you had less of.... then cut it out. You can also adjust the 31 band EQ on the drive rack, this may be a better place to "suck out" that area of the vocal you don't like as its filter is 1/3 octave wide, and your parametric eq on the board is about 1-1.5 octave. One other thing you can try is some very light compression with in the DBX. Try some different attach / release times, but use a very shallow attack 1.5/1 and only let it do about 3 db of compression. you may find this "mixes" everything together in a nice way. You may find differently. Are you running mono by chance? There are some other more advanced techniques you can use if your running a mono system. Kev.

Yeah, I tend to start with the channels flat, hi pass on and thats it. Check the levels and cut the mids alittle then sweep the freq around, then tweak the treb abit and usually don't mess with the bass.

 

The vocals tend to sound honky in a way. We can hear them and make out the words, but they tend to be either buried or too out front, just not quite there.

 

The system is set up stereo, but I mix everything in mono. The DRPA doesnt have a mono out. I've never used the comp or limiting in the DRPA, since the speakers already have limiting built in.

[W. M. Hellinger]

You need 6 to 10dB stomping ground for the leads.

 

Do you have that?

 

Like you can just lay that in there with a flick of the whick?

[Greazygeo]

You need 6 to 10dB stomping ground for the leads. Do you have that? Like you can just lay that in there with a flick of the whick?

Yeah I have no problem with headroom....there is always plenty of gas left.

[Mogwix]

 

Yeah I have no problem with headroom....there is always plenty of gas left.

 

If I'm understanding your situation... your problem isn't getting vocals on top... but getting them to blend?

 

I know what you're talking about but really I've only had this problem while recording. What I've found works is to have a huge massive vocal reverb that's mixed really low. Keep the vocals mostly dry with just a touch of reverb... it's easy to get carried away with reverb so take it easy.

 

Live, I have a really light compression on the vocals and some EQ (usually a cut in the 200-250hz region to get rid of the proximity effect and a slight bump in the top end, plus a slight cut at 1k), but no reverb.

[TimmyP]

If you are eating the mics as you should be, you have as much as 12dB of boost at 200Hz, as much as 10dB at 100 and 275, and as much as 5dB at 100 and 400 (see http://www.padrick.net/LiveSound/Proximity.jpg). You need to EQ this out, and then smooth out the presence peak so the vocals don't bite too much. (You need to thin the bottom of the vocals out of the monitors as well - that "big, chesty tone" just muddies things up both on stage and out in front.

[Prog]

If you are eating the mics as you should be, ...

[kevinnem]

another idea, .. for a different prospective.... maybe the vocals are fine, .. and the rest of the mix is not LETTING them fit in well. - takes 2 to tango.

[boomerweps]

The DRPA does have a mono out, you just have to program it for mono mode and use the right jacks as shown on the front panel.

 

I would NEVER use the SYSTEM EQ to tweak the vocals. That just changes everything too much.

 

The vocal range is also the main guitar range. Use your mixer strip EQs to seperate the two. You can INSERT a parametric or 1/3 oct EQ on the individual channels to help separate the guitar from the vocals. Only a couple vocals, insert the EQ on them. Several vocals, insert the EQ on the guitar to pull it away from the vocals. Stereo does have it's advantages. You can PAN the instruments a little to each side while leaving the vocals in the middle to help them stand out.

 

Last, try to soundcheck the VOCALS first. Everyone wants to do instruments first then fit the vocals in. Do it the other way around. Fit the instruments to the vocals.

 

Boomerweps

[Ear Abuser]

You might want to try and make a "hole" in the guitar eq where the vocals can sit. Figure out where the vocal sound is and pull some of that out of fthe guitars so they aren't competing for the same bandwidth.

[agedhorse]

If you find that you need drastic eq, something else is most likely wrong. Proximity effect is not generally anything near where Timmy suggests, and with that much eq, moving the mic even an inch can end up with a really thin sound. Eating the mic is NOT a technique I would suggest except for a specific effect. A couple of inches is really better technique and way more forgiving in the real world.

 

Listen to a few hours of really good vocal mixes to get a feel for ways it can work and how it fits.

[MarkGifford-1]

It sounds like it's more of a compression isue, than EQ.

 

I use a compressor, on the channel insert. Generally set for 3 or 4:1, quickish attack, medium release and getting about 3 dB of GR when there's singing, 6-9dB of GR when the singer really lets it go.

 

That smooths it out enough so that it allows me to set the vocal right where it needs to be and it blends beautifully with the band.

 

I never use more than a few dB of EQ on anything, especially voices. I may take out 2 dB in some of the harsher upper midrange on a strident female, or take out a little low-mid on a male, but that's about it.

 

MG

[agedhorse]

You may want to experiment with a lower ratio as well... 2:1 with a dB or 2 with normal singing and up to 6dB with harder parts will allow for an earlier (lower) threshold and a smoother transition. It's another technique.

[Greazygeo]

 

It sounds like it's more of a compression isue, than EQ. I use a compressor, on the channel insert. Generally set for 3 or 4:1, quickish attack, medium release and getting about 3 dB of GR when there's singing, 6-9dB of GR when the singer really lets it go. That smooths it out enough so that it allows me to set the vocal right where it needs to be and it blends beautifully with the band. I never use more than a few dB of EQ on anything, especially voices. I may take out 2 dB in some of the harsher upper midrange on a strident female, or take out a little low-mid on a male, but that's about it. MG

Thats what I am wondering. The only problem is with this board if I compress the front, the monitors end up a mess. I thought about using a splitter to run each vocal to another channel and use one that I can compress and the other for the monitor mix.

 

Thanks guys for all the suggestions!

 

Could it be that the mics are part of the problem?

[lifeloverwg]

1. We've all been playing forever and they have good mic technique. There is just some honkiness I can't seem to find. 2. Are you sure on the DRPA and mono? I've not found the setting for it. The system eq pretty much stays where it is, I RTA-d it outdoors and it works pretty much everywhere we go. Sometimes I might tweak it a tiny bit. 3. Thats what I am wondering. The only problem is with this board if I compress the front, the monitors end up a mess. I thought about using a splitter to run each vocal to another channel and use one that I can compress and the other for the monitor mix. Thanks guys for all the suggestions! 4. Could it be that the mics are part of the problem?

 

1. Could just be that your ears are getting better than the speakers. I always felt the same way about our EON's. No matter what I did there was a honky/hanky tone I couldn't get rid of. Instantly solved with new better speakers. At least for now.

 

2. I have our system setup in the DriverackPA for both mono and stereo. It's the first choice you have to make in the program wizard setup. I take my tops signal out of left high, but I believe you can take it from right as well.

 

3. I just started splitting the vocal channels and haven't had any feedback in the monitors since. Admittedly, we haven't been on our worst stages yet, but so far I'm really loving it. It's great to be able to EQ the monitors differently than FOH. It does eat channels though.

 

4. Better mics are always an option, although lots of people seem to like the 835's. It's amazing how much difference on a voice a different mic can make. We are using four different mics on our four voices, but we maintain a pretty low stage level. Most of the local bar/club acts I see are so damn loud they're probably better off sticking with one or maybe two different types on stage for help with feedback control.

 

Good luck solving it, Winston.

www.myspace.com/sisterwives

[drumstix]

I would think about trying some new mic's as mentioned above, perhaps just some ole flat SM58's will do the trick!

[agedhorse]

 

Thats what I am wondering. The only problem is with this board if I compress the front, the monitors end up a mess. I thought about using a splitter to run each vocal to another channel and use one that I can compress and the other for the monitor mix.

 

 

If it's messing with the monitors, you are either compressing too much or have serious gain before feedback limitations in your monitor system.

 

I wonder if your monitor levels are so high that you are hearing the instability artifacts of the monitor signal affecting the mains. It's quite common. Turn the monitors off and see if the honkyness goes away.

[lifeloverwg]

 

If it's messing with the monitors, you are either compressing too much or have serious gain before feedback limitations in your monitor system. I wonder if your monitor levels are so high that you are hearing the instability artifacts of the monitor signal affecting the mains. It's quite common. Turn the monitors off and see if the honkyness goes away .

 

 

Could you expand on what you mean by "instability artifacts of the monitor signal affecting the mains" for me? It's not something I understand.

 

Thanks, Winston.

[mrbobo]

I owned a PA very similar to yours for some years (elite 508s, unpowered and LS808 subs) and a Driverack PA. Came out of the boards mono out into the Driverack, and out of it mono to the amps/mains. I also did my RTA stuff outside ...but I think I liked the C or D curve better than the flat setting.

 

We had some E835 mics, but also E845 and E855 and some SM58s. The 835 sounds nice and round- all alone, but most the other choices are brighter. Might want to try a brighter mic.

 

While reverb is standard fair on vocals, I seem to like a slapback type delay better....or delay/verb mix of say 80% delay/20% verb (more delay than reverb).

 

Like everyone knows - it's about the whole mix...everything has it's place. Drums always sound to me- overmixed in small venues...I used the PA on them to simply add some body, low end - not really to make them any louder (well, I do like the kick louder). Look carefully at the guitars tones and how they mix with the vocals. I think the heavier the music/more distorted and in your face the guitars are, the brasher the lead vox needs to be.

[alcohol]

Greazygeo wrote:

 

"The vocals tend to sound honky in a way. We can hear them and make out the words, but they tend to be either buried or too out front, just not quite there. "

 

I've always found that attenuating the mids gets rid of vocal honkiness. I usually do that on the board.

[agedhorse]

Instability artifacts are artifacts (or sounds) that are added, caused by the system being on the verge of feedback. They are caused by the non-linear response due to interaction between the mic and the monitors (usually perceived as a hollow boxy sound, or having a midrange edge that is because the signal is almost oscillating due to the phase and amplitude combination. This signal is then being amplified and reproduced by the main speakers. It's one reason why IEM's help the main PA sound so much in (what was) high stage monitor situations.

[nin4269]

God I love this forum.... if you had asked that question at a Guitar Center the guy would have said "Here's a reverb unit..."

 

Instead I now have "instability artifacts" added to my professional lexicon.

 

So how do the vocals sound at normal volume with no instruments?