Members Norton666 Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 The reason I ask is we are doing a show this weekend in a beer garden(which is pretty small) and I was tossing around the idea of just taking our tops and running them full range(the tops are Carvin 1588's Dual 15" , horn) and not hauling the Dual 18" subs with us. This setup would cut way down on setup and tear down time , and Im not sure we will need the subs. I think the 1588's will probably move enough low end for the volume we will be running at. Whatcha think? Should I take the subs to fill out the sound or should I skip it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 What do you run (or plan to run) through your PA? If it's vocals and some guitar - yes. If you mic the drums and run the bass through the PA - plan on bringing the sub. I'd hate to leave a piece of equipment home, only to find that the dynamics of the room suck and I NEED the piece of equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 At a minimum, I like the sound of a subwoofer reinforced kick drum. The bass amp normally carries the room. Others will argue that an exaggerated kick sound is not a real representation of the drum....but I like it that way! So yes, I bring a sub to every gig. Edit: I also do not have dual 15 mains...so a sub is likely overkill in a small room for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GZsound Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 In my opinion... No.. I have been running my entire band through the PA for years and never needed a sub. Of course if you are playing ear splitting music, then you must have a sub, a couple of tops, ten thousand watts of power, etc. ESPECIALLY if you are playing in a small venue.. Those 200 folks need their music at 125 db. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members boomerweps Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 Have you site checked the venue yet? Always a good thing. Dual 15" tops? in a small venue? No subs will be fine, even with some kick put in the tops. I wouldn't want the bass guitar pushing a lot into them, though. Just make sure you have plenty of power (that they can handle) going into the tops. More power available run at lower levels allows them to handle the bass signals better IME. I'm all for easier load in and load outs. Will you be able to get the horns above people's heads without the subs for a base. Dual 15 model tops aren't stand mountable ;>( Plus you'll need to reroute cabling differently. For the times I don't use subs, I can just select a different DRPA program ;>) boomerweps Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 You shouldn't need the subs. I don't know your gear but make sure you eliminate the crossover so the tops do full range. I've actually witnessed a band that decided the gig was too small for their subs and didn't bring them along. They also didn't reset their Driverack so the tops got full range. The sound was very empty until I pointed the problem out to them. The second set sounded much, much better. That is a great advantage of the Driverack stuff. Just make a different preset for each configuration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 With double 15's you should be fine. You could always compromise and bring just one sub. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 Driveracks work great if you remember how to use them!!! With a 215 cabinet, I would say that for small venues subs COULD certainly be optional depending on the music and the volume. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Norton666 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 We are a heavy southern rock band. We do 99% original material with some Skynyrd and Sabbath in there for seasoning. Most likely, the main things going through the system will be vocals and kick drum. We will probably mic the guitar cabs, but more for monitors than mains. Should I put the Dual 15" cabs on something or should I just set them on the ground. If they are on the ground, the horn is about 4' high if I remember right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 Get the up on something. The horn height is (way) more important than any possible loss in LF response/sensitivity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Norton666 Posted June 5, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 Get the up on something. The horn height is (way) more important than any possible loss in LF response/sensitivity. Give me some ideas. What should I put them on? and how high do I need them to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flanc Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 You need to get the horns above peoples ears...somewhere between 6 1/2 feet and 7 feet high. I'm not sure how tall your speakers are to suggest how to elevate them....maybe some sturdy roadcase with some racket straps for support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ncmts Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 This question brings into play..Do you mic everything at every gig?.. I have had this discussion several times on the local level. My position is, if you go the far side of the venue, will the audience be able to hear everything on stage without micing? If not, that is what is brought up in the PA. In the beer garden, if they cannot hear the kick drum, then this is put through the PA. If your mains can handle this adequately, there is no reason for subs. That is a call made at the venue itself. I probably will get a bunch of guff from this response as there are "purists" out there that insist every gig gets everything through the PA. I contend the purpose of a PA is to "amplify" what is not heard from the stage. If the stage volume is projecting to the far reaches of the gig, then the fader on that offending channel should be all the way down. Otherwise, the db level starts on an upward spiral. Discipline by the musicians themselves is necessary to control the stage volume. That being said, this is probably a thread all by itself, so I will end it there. Just my 2 centavos, ncmts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 I'll just bite my tongue and not go on a rant about those speakers. (where's my smilies?) Anyway, I'd use the subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 Plenty of smaller gigs it makes sense not to use subs. In your case the speakers should be fine without them for a smaller venue. I have done this many times with just single 15+1" boxes but they are vocal only as well, no kick or bass. The venue should be small enough not to need it. In your case you could still run everything thru it, and it may not be the same w/o subs but you may get some 60hz out of them. HPF around 50 with a steep filter and go to town. You'll need to adjust your main EQ as well so give yourself a bit of time for that, otherwise consider your setup to be the same w/o subs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Al Poulin Posted June 5, 2007 Members Share Posted June 5, 2007 Of course if you are playing ear splitting music, then you must have a sub, a couple of tops, ten thousand watts of power, etc. ESPECIALLY if you are playing in a small venue.. Those 200 folks need their music at 125 db. I'm not sure I understand the reason for this remark, but I don't really feel your comment has anything to do with the use of subs or not. Some people are simply idiots when it comes to sound/music levels - with or without subs. No matter how loud it is, some drunk will always yell ''Crank it up!'' Some bands and sound engineers simply seem to believe Louder is Better. Maybe if it's loud enough people won't notice the band's lack of talent? Anyway, I don't recall ever being in a loud club or venue and saying to myself ''Man, those subs are really hurting my ears''. If anything, in most live sound situations, used intelligently, subs will improve the sound and balance it out so it is not only the mids of the guitar, drums and vocals that are coming through the mix to the ears of your audience. This perhaps does not apply to acoustic duos and smaller jazz type groups. But, wherever there is a drum kit and a bass playing, I've always noticed the huge difference subs make. In many venues, I bring my sub because it improves the sound and takes some strain off my mains. In smaller venues, where I know my mains will not have any problem producing full range sound without breaking a sweat, then I don't bring it. Depends on your application, the type of music you play and how loud you like that music I guess... Al - Party-Time! DJ Services Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 6, 2007 Members Share Posted June 6, 2007 I'm with Al! Adding the 50-80 hz frequencies (mainly in the kick in a small situation) doesn't really add any major volume increase but it sure makes a rock band sound more authentic. I've never heard a rock/pop band live that didn't sound like a garage/basement band when they weren't miking the kick at least a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnnyGraphic Posted June 6, 2007 Members Share Posted June 6, 2007 Give me some ideas. What should I put them on? and how high do I need them to be? Put them on top of the subs! Johnny!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted June 6, 2007 Members Share Posted June 6, 2007 My Dad always said, "If you can't be good, be loud". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted June 6, 2007 Moderators Share Posted June 6, 2007 I've never heard a rock/pop band live that didn't sound like a garage/basement band when they weren't miking the kick at least a little.If the band is tight, is that really a problem for 99% of the audience oir just a few musicians and a couple of soundguys that may or may not be present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unsound Practices Posted June 6, 2007 Members Share Posted June 6, 2007 If the band is tight, is that really a problem for 99% of the audience oir just a few musicians and a couple of soundguys that may or may not be present? Its a sub conscious thing (pun intended). Your 99% of the audience might not know WHY it sounds better, but when you get the kick and bass happening it will FEEL better. We rented some subs for a recent small gig where the house PA was only 15" Yamaha Club tops. The owner gave us a WTF look when we set up, but was a happy lad when we started playing. We were LESS loud and more clear then the regular band. I'm starting to be a member of the "always bring subs" club if a drummer and pop music are involved. Life's too short not to hear the kick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted June 6, 2007 Members Share Posted June 6, 2007 If the band is tight, is that really a problem for 99% of the audience oir just a few musicians and a couple of soundguys that may or may not be present?The audience, obviously. As touched upon already, most music fans will be able to hear how one band sounds good and professional/polished and another sounds like beginners/just doesn't sound right. Isn't that what matters? So what if they can't answer specifically if you stick a mic in their face and say "what is it that makes band A sound so much better than band B" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators ThudMaker Posted June 6, 2007 Moderators Share Posted June 6, 2007 So at really small joints where a top box is going to push only vocals and an acoustic guitar, how are you going to use a sub? In a place like that a top box is what is required. Would you mic the kick and put a little in the tops and then use the main outputs line out on the powered mixer to go to a crossover and send the sub only frequencies to a separate amp/sub (obviously the kick would be the only thing in the sub mix)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members burdizzos Posted June 6, 2007 Members Share Posted June 6, 2007 For small shows, I've been using a Avatar B212 as a sub. Normally, it is the stage monitor for the drummer. I feed it kick and bass since I'm the bass player and I do not use a bass rig on stage. We played a 50X30 bar last week where the owner would not allow us to run subs, so I pushed the 212 with half of a PV2600 and it actually did a pretty good job of carrying the house. I'd always prefer to have subs, but sometimes the gig just isn't worth hauling them in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BigMac5 Posted June 6, 2007 Members Share Posted June 6, 2007 We played a 50X30 bar last week where the owner would not allow us to run subs, so I pushed the 212 with half of a PV2600 and it actually did a pretty good job of carrying the house.Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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