Members Zeromus-X Posted June 14, 2007 Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 I'm sure a lot of the sound comes from the atmosphere of the actual place, and having a giant PA system... we had a thread similar to this not long ago, but it started to take another direction. I was watching a video from the Download 2007 festival, and came across one that's got the particular sound I'm looking for. The actual song doesn't start until you hit about 1:20, and it's got some foul language so don't listen if you're at work... but if you've got a decent computer speaker system, you'll see what I mean -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOXmZlmGGLA&mode=user&search= Maybe it's just that the drums and bass are turned up really high (and have their bass knobs cranked or something), but it's a very "powerful" sound -- it sounds like it's loud even at a relatively low volume (like what you're listening to right now!). You can just tell there's "power" behind it. Is something like this possible in a bar that holds 200 people? Assuming stage volume was kept to an absolute minimum (possibly even e-drums and POD type guitar amps / bass into a DI), is something like that do-able, or is it just a matter of the venue being so huge that the bass is that powerful? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted June 14, 2007 Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 So when you listen to this Festival sound ... via Youtube and I'm guessing your computer speakers the sound is first limiter by your computer playback system. I'm guessing limited bandwidth and dynamic range. The short answer is play the Youtube through a sound system into a club that holds 200 people and there by defination you have it. The other short answer is play what they played, the way they played it, miced and mixed they way they did it and you'll have it. I guess the other factor would be whatever "filter" was formed by whatever picked up the sound for the camera. It's not necessarily the venue that is making the sound. It does go to prove that it's not the sheer volume that makes the sound ... it's the sound that makes the sound. I'm always amused by guitar players who think they need this or that to make the tone that they heard in their car stereo. If you can here it there ... then that equipment has the posibility of making that sound. You just gotta dial it in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted June 14, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 Believe me, I know how filtered the sound is. I'm not talking about the lo-fi artifacts you're gonna get from dumbing the video down to YouTube's streaming standards. When the band finally starts the song, you just hear it really kick in. It's the same feeling you get at a very well-done live show at a large place; amphitheater shows and coliseum shows just always sound so "different" than small shows, even 1000-1500 capacity places can never get that sound that an arena/coliseum can. I'm just wondering what gives it that "arena sound", and if it's possible to duplicate in a smaller place. Obviously playing back a recording of an arena show is one way... just not very reasonable for a live band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rbts Posted June 14, 2007 Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 What I heard was centered around the marshall stacks for the guitar player, and good articulate playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted June 14, 2007 Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 If you mean 'is it possible to get a fat and full mix', sure! we have a very modest PA for our bar gigs, and we have a good full sound, not too loud, but the kick and bass come across very nicely. It all has to do with how you mix, really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted June 14, 2007 Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 I was watching a video from the Download 2007 festival, and came across one that's got the particular sound I'm looking for. Yes, *that* was what my question/thread was concerning. Admittedly, my quest involves an entirely different genre, but I believe there a common dimension to the sound. I believe size matters in our quest. I don't think it's possible to get *that* sound inna 200 seat room... anymore so that what it's possible to recreate the sound of the grand canyon in a studio... or get a violin to sound like a cello. I believe there's possibly no replacement for displacement... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zeromus-X Posted June 14, 2007 Author Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 I didn't know if it was because you're dealing with a sound that's typically heavily processed when compared to smaller shows (very gated/compressed drums, etc). It seems like the two things that really stand out mix-wise at large shows to me are (a) the snare drum nearly always sounds "perfect" in the mix, and (b) there's a massive amount of sub-bass moving around. Part of my wondering was if, instead of matching up the tops and subs the way we do it now, if maybe doubling the amount of subs and compressing/gating the drums (right now neither is happening), and running them "lower" (i.e. not just blasting the hell out of them, but adding more subharmonic stuff to the signal) might help. The whole "my pants are moving but it doesn't seem painfully loud" phenomenon is what I'm looking towards, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members burdizzos Posted June 14, 2007 Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 Team up with us for a gig some time and we can run all four subs plus the Meyer with my mains. We can use your band's JRXs for monitors and I'll bring both of my 2x12s for on stage low end support. That should get us close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted June 14, 2007 Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 I don't see how you can possibly get "arena sound" in a small club. The issue I see is at any big show you are hearing the PA not the band. But in any small club you hear tons of the band augmented by the PA.Maybe if the band was all on IEMs, have their amps in iso boxes and have an electronic drum kit you could come closer. But you still have all the reverbant energy you don't have out of doors. Space, it's the final frontier....... Winston. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 14, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted June 14, 2007 I didn't know if it was because you're dealing with a sound that's typically heavily processed when compared to smaller shows (very gated/compressed drums, etc). It seems like the two things that really stand out mix-wise at large shows to me are (a) the snare drum nearly always sounds "perfect" in the mix, and (b) there's a massive amount of sub-bass moving around. Part of my wondering was if, instead of matching up the tops and subs the way we do it now, if maybe doubling the amount of subs and compressing/gating the drums (right now neither is happening), and running them "lower" (i.e. not just blasting the hell out of them, but adding more subharmonic stuff to the signal) might help. The whole "my pants are moving but it doesn't seem painfully loud" phenomenon is what I'm looking towards, I suppose. Massive amounts of sub-bass are decidedly *not* a characteristic of arena sound, as it's usually almost impossible to even provide adequate bass levels in huge volume spaces. This is why in Mark's thread I asked for some clarification of what's requested. We all have a different idea of what constitutes great sound. It does seem to me that you're seeking a tight mix with plenty of clear bass. It doesn't require a lot of anything, but it does require a careful mix, low stage volume, and really good speakers. Or, basically, what we try to recommend to everyone who asks what they should buy for a PA, and how to run it:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Square Posted June 14, 2007 Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 It's possible to get that sound in a club.... BUT!..... All sounds on stage must be very, very clean. You will need decent reverb units. Setup your reverb sends so they are pre fader. Basically you want to be able to add reverb without increasing the volume in the house. This will require a decent bit of fader and aux knob riding by your soundman. Reverb amount will vary by instrument, with Kick, snare and vocals being the primary receipients. It helps to have more than one reverb unit as you will want to EQ the return channels differently for drums and vocals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted June 14, 2007 Members Share Posted June 14, 2007 I didn't know if it was because you're dealing with a sound that's typically heavily processed when compared to smaller shows (very gated/compressed drums, etc). It seems like the two things that really stand out mix-wise at large shows to me are (a) the snare drum nearly always sounds "perfect" in the mix, and (b) there's a massive amount of sub-bass moving around. Part of my wondering was if, instead of matching up the tops and subs the way we do it now, if maybe doubling the amount of subs and compressing/gating the drums (right now neither is happening), and running them "lower" (i.e. not just blasting the hell out of them, but adding more subharmonic stuff to the signal) might help. The whole "my pants are moving but it doesn't seem painfully loud" phenomenon is what I'm looking towards, I suppose. I believe it's got nothing to do with processing or anything else except sheer size. The best anology I can come up with to explain this is related to horsepower, which a motor or engine generates via torque and RPM. Horsepower is horsepower, but there's considerable difference in the characteristics of that horsepower depending on the torque of the engine. An example is that a Honda Ninja type motorcycle might have similar horsepower as compaired to a Harley... but how that horsepower feels and acts is completely different between the two bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted June 15, 2007 Members Share Posted June 15, 2007 I took my 12-year old son out to see the Honda Civic Tour (Fall Out Boy, +44, The Academy Is and Cobra Starship) last week at the PNC Art Center in NJ. I was amazed by how poor the sound was. Way too much bass (boom), too much compression and (the sign of age) it was just too loud. I couldn't understand a single spoken word between songs. I'd much rather hear a small club sound in an arena. I'll take great sound over loud sound any day. BTW, I was shocked at the Fall Out Boy performance. They were really good. The bass player from +44 forgot to act-along with his backing track...how sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Scodiddly Posted June 15, 2007 Members Share Posted June 15, 2007 I didn't comment in the other thread, but.... I think it has to do with the musical arrangement. Groups like the Rolling Stones had to arrange things so that all the parts could fit, and could be heard even through bad PA systems. Or as Keith Richards said in an interview when asked about coordinating two guitars, "the ancient art of weaving". A lot of that old warhorse rock music was pretty stripped-down, even when you saw a huge band on stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted June 15, 2007 Members Share Posted June 15, 2007 I didn't know if it was because you're dealing with a sound that's typically heavily processed when compared to smaller shows (very gated/compressed drums, etc). It seems like the two things that really stand out mix-wise at large shows to me are (a) the snare drum nearly always sounds "perfect" in the mix, and (b) there's a massive amount of sub-bass moving around. Part of my wondering was if, instead of matching up the tops and subs the way we do it now, if maybe doubling the amount of subs and compressing/gating the drums (right now neither is happening), and running them "lower" (i.e. not just blasting the hell out of them, but adding more subharmonic stuff to the signal) might help. The whole "my pants are moving but it doesn't seem painfully loud" phenomenon is what I'm looking towards, I suppose. One thing you can try is the sub synth setting on a Driverack. It adds harmonics to increase the sound from the sub, I guess actually it makes the subs sound lower. Pretty cool effect but we don't use it much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted June 15, 2007 Members Share Posted June 15, 2007 Groups like the Rolling Stones had to arrange things so that all the parts could fit, and could be heard even through bad PA systems. Or as Keith Richards said in an interview when asked about coordinating two guitars, "the ancient art of weaving". Well, yea. Mick Taylor and Ron Wood play(ed) with Keith, and Mick. Completely arranged, and woven. That's part of The Stone's sound, but IMO, that's got less to do with the size (depth) of the sound when they're playing arenas than the machinery and environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Balladeer Posted June 15, 2007 Members Share Posted June 15, 2007 I'm still waiting to hear that 'small club' type sound in an arena... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miket156 Posted June 15, 2007 Members Share Posted June 15, 2007 Quote by Gary in NJ: "I took my 12-year old son out to see the Honda Civic Tour (Fall Out Boy, +44, The Academy Is and Cobra Starship) last week at the PNC Art Center in NJ. I was amazed by how poor the sound was. Way too much bass (boom), too much compression and (the sign of age) it was just too loud. I couldn't understand a single spoken word between songs. I'd much rather hear a small club sound in an arena. I'll take great sound over loud sound any day. BTW, I was shocked at the Fall Out Boy performance. They were really good. The bass player from +44 forgot to act-along with his backing track...how sad." Gary, I think that's pretty common in large arenas. Some of it depends on the acoustics. If its built like a gym with high ceilings and nothing to absorb the sound, its a lot easier to sound terrible AND too loud than anything else. Some sound men are deaf. The old slogan of "If its too loud you're too old" is bull{censored}. If its too loud, turn it down. Stage amps should be small, no matter how big the venue. Its mission critical for guitar players to get good tone, and that requires crankin' up the amp to get that sound. If you're carrying a couple of twin Marshall stacks and turning them up to get the tone, everyone on stage will have to match and they'll be pumpin' out some major DB's. If you're using direct boxes rather than mic's for FOH, leakage won't be as big a problem (vocal mics will carry over into other channels) , but otherwise, you will end up with a garbled mess. With small stage amps, you can get the sound you want without too much volume. Let the FOH system do the work. Everyone will enjoy the music and their ears will last longer. Having small stage equipment is more important in a small building. I've seen acts bring in their Marshall stacks and run it into the FOH system and blow everyone out of the club. Best to have small stage equipment and a decent size PA to cover the room and keep the volume at a reasonable level. Mike T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Asmodaus Posted June 17, 2007 Members Share Posted June 17, 2007 There are some serious experts here but these are my tips comming from a metal head. You are speaking about the sound as a whole, correct? Not just the tight drum sound. 2 most important factors: You are talking about a high quality system that costs thousands of dollars. That is mixed by a group of sound engineers that do this day in and day out for a living. So always keep that in mind. Most of us cannot replicate those 2 factors. 3. If the the drummer using triggers because that would make a difference in the tight, neat, drum sound. 4. Some great tips for live metal sound. Metal tone is rather complex. You want your sound tight. Use a compressor and a parametric EQ. It will tighten up everything. You must invest in good FX units then experiment depending on the venue. You don't want it too compressed or it will sound thin and sterile. EQ will remove unwanted frequencies. You may need more than one EQ and you may need to do it by channel instead of from the final mix. Again, you must experiment depending on your venue. Get parametric EQ, a graphic just can't do it the same. That alone will surprise you if your not using one. 4. Watch the mids. You want the vocals and guitar to ring through with some mids or else they'll be fighting the drums and Bass for audio space in the final mixup and get buried and sound less tight. That's often why amateur band singers and guitar seems under volumed and the guitar player is always turning up too much:) . 5. PA Speaker and amp volume(I mean size) 15" will push considerably more air than 10s or 12s. You would get more of your desired effect with a stack of 15" woofer PA speakers with a 2000 watt amp at mid volume than a stack of 10" with a 1000 watt amp being pushed as loud as it can go. That's all I've got from my experiences. good luck But most bands don't sound the same at small venues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miket156 Posted June 18, 2007 Members Share Posted June 18, 2007 Quote by Asmodaus: "That's often why amateur band singers and guitar seems under volumed and the guitar player is always turning up too much ". :) And here all along I thought it was because the singer really couldn't sing well and the guitar player was deaf from playing too loud all the time. Mike T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.