I'm sure you all have had this experience-advice?

[hornplayer]

Yesterday's gig was a real experience for me.

 

First some background

My band has a fairly decent sound system, with the luxury of a seperate monitor board on stage feeding front of house. We have been together for over 10 years, and are a fairly large band (8 players on stage) with a full brass section. We do classic rock and blues covers with our own "twist" to the music adding custom horn parts.

 

Anyway we have all worked hard on the sound, and thanks to much advice gleaned from this forum and the pros that hang out here, have learned the virtues of keeping our stage volume under control, and let our FOH sound guy do his job, without stage volume help.

 

Well enter in yesterday's gig.

Un-be-knownst to me, I found when we arrived at the gig that another band was also playing and they would be "sharing" our sound rig. (It was a charity event) I didn't like that little surprise, but OK, I'll be a team player and go along with it.

We proceeded on sound set up and sound check with my band, and all was good. (outdoor gig, so the sytem was cranking, and sounded pretty good)

We did our set with out incident,

 

I told our FOH sound guy, that I'd do monitors for the other band, and would help on stage with a few extra mics, and stage set up. (I started to feel like a sound provider now--which I'm not) At sound check time things started sliding down hill. (I should have known something was wrong when the rhythm guitar player wheeled out a Mesa Boogi triple rectifier amp, plugged in, and started to "set the amp up"). My goodness, I couldn't hear myself think. I politely asked if he could turn it down a bit, so the FOH guy could control the sound better. Well that request didn't register. He said "I always set it at this level".

 

The bass guitar player then plugged in, and you guessed it, swamped the Mesa with Ampeg bass sound level that would rattle the Superdome. You can all see where this is going.

Needless to say, when we started checking monitors, the "I can't hear my vocals, and I can't hear the lead guitar, and we don't have enough kick drum in the monitors" requests started. It was a complete volume war on stage. What a train wreck.

 

Well I doubled the monitor volume from what my band uses, and tried to accommodate their requests. Hustled back to the FOH guy, and warned him. (he groaned).

The show went on. FOH guy had the bass guitar slider all the way down. Both guitars down to -30db, and vocals running -5 db to get above the din of noise. (Also a lot of complaining (I'll be kind with the wording here) that the monitor sound was _____ ) That sure didn't settle with me well.)

 

I'm sure many of you understand this scenario.

Thanks for letting me rant.

 

How do you guys deal with this? Politely pointing out the virtues of proper stage volume? (that didn't work too good) Go turn down their volumes for them? Yell at them?

 

Anyway, it was not a good experience. What a train wreck for sound, although kudos to our FOH guy for making a glob of sound decernable through FOH.

 

Yikes!!!!

[Craig Vecchione]

First, I'd have told the promoter of the charity event that volunteering to play and provide your own sound did not obligate you provide your sound system and services running it for any other band they decided to bring along. But that since they decided to blindside you, you'd be kind enough to go along with that scene, as long as the band goes along with how you run the system. No cooperation....no system.

 

This is but one of many reasons to be *very* selective in agreeing to charity events.

[Craig Vecchione]

Oh, and I'd have insisted upon performing *last*.

[BigMac5]

How do you guys deal with this? Politely pointing out the virtues of proper stage volume? (that didn't work too good) Go turn down their volumes for them? Yell at them? Anyway, it was not a good experience. What a train wreck for sound, although kudos to our FOH guy for making a glob of sound decernable through FOH. Yikes!!!!

I gess just point out that they sound like crap due to their high stage volume.

[Marko]

 

I politely asked if he could turn it down a bit, so the FOH guy could control the sound better. Well that request didn't register. He said "I always set it at this level". The bass guitar player then plugged in, and you guessed it, swamped the Mesa with Ampeg bass sound level that would rattle the Superdome. You can all see where this is going. Needless to say, when we started checking monitors, the "I can't hear my vocals, and I can't hear the lead guitar, and we don't have enough kick drum in the monitors"...

 

 

A fitting response might have been...

[rockerdiva]

 

First, I'd have told the promoter of the charity event that volunteering to play and provide your own sound did not obligate you provide your sound system and services running it for any other band they decided to bring along. But that since they decided to blindside you, you'd be kind enough to go along with that scene, as long as the band goes along with how you run the system. No cooperation....no system. This is but one of many reasons to be *very* selective in agreeing to charity events.

 

 

This sounds right to me.

[witesol]

sorry for your experience, it's never fun, especially when there is resistance to reasonableness.

I'll first ask. then tell the lead singer it's "too bad you won't be able to hear his fine vocal because of the guitar/bass players inabilility to turn down"(or whatever subtle mind coercion works). Then I'll physically go up turn down the amp while they're playing. During the breaks between songs I'll talk on the monitors to the band, continuing to suggest a direction. If they continue to ask for things, especially on the mains I'll gladly talk back to the band through the mains too; " i could give you more monitors if you had a reasonable guitar and bass amp volume, people are complaining already that it's too loud"...

After the gig, I'll alway have a chat with the players, often asking them if I'm really the first to complain about the volume before.

someone volunteered your system, which isn't cool. The band wasn't respectful of that, not cool at all. LIke W.M. said, sound for band "b" billed $150.

while I've never shut down a system, or sabotaged any gig, I'll simply stop at the level I think it should be.

[tlbonehead]

Definitely, nothing would have been started with the other band w/o finding the person who volunteered my rig and explaining to them that things just don't work that way.

[jbutler1982]

I've been in sound reinforcement for a short time - probably five months - and I've got a little hobby LLC. It is unbelievable how many times I've been asked (probably 6 or 7, at least) to haul gear and set up in the hot sun for outdoor charity events for free. This doesn't seem to happen in any other field. I've been retained by several charities to maintain or secure their status as tax-free or deductible donation entities, and not once has the charity ever suggested I not be paid my usual fee since they are a charity.

 

I wonder what it is about live sound services that makes it seem likely to be open to being free...

[oldrock]

I'm still real new to the sound stuff but so far, I've had several unusual requests from potential events. Haven't had them ask me to supply sound for someone else yet though. Guess that is one perk of having a starter pa rig... nobody wants to use our stuff yet. I will say though that I wouldn't want someone else using my expensive pa gear and risk blowing a speaker or something. I would have had to just tell them sorry but no can do.

[Craig Vecchione]

It's not just charities. A few weeks ago some of you may recall me mentioning that I was discussing running sound for an upstart band. Their manager asked for me to provide some small items of rental gear (snake, mics, etc), and to run the shows, show up to all rehearsals, etc etc. In return I'd be "a member of the band" and split the take (at least 6 ways, as far as I could tell) after expenses. I told him I would not be member of the band, and would charge a flat rate per gig of $75. This for a briefcase gig, two rehearsal per week plus gear rental was very reasonable IMO. I'm sure once I tallied up the total hours, I'd be making about 50 cents an hour.

 

When I sent the proposal email, the reply I got was, "is this negotiable?"

 

 

I replied, "Yes, upward".

[oldrock]

craig, I here ya on that one. I do that stuff for my boys band and in their "generosity" they decided to give me a 1/5th split of the take. So that $100 they get means I make $20 to help plan, practice, drive out, set up, run sound, take down and drive back. Gee, wonder how much that nets me per hour? I'm thinking about -10/hour. Imagine a business plan with those financials HAHAHA!

 

edited to add: the easy way for me to improve my bottom line in sound... work less!

[bassred]

Oldrock, no offense, you are a parent to one of the boys, right? I'd say $20 is pretty good (most kids expect their parents to do it for free if they do it at all)

 

 

This whole charity world is nuts.. I used to volunteer my services to a few organizations, I'd haul the gear, setup a festival style stage ( a bunch of everything just in case) and run the show... I'd ask theperson in charge to tell the acts to get there at Xtime, so I could write down what hey needed and get my brain around each setup/changeover..... more times than not I wouldn't see the bands/acts until it was 5 minutes into their stage change over time.... so I'd have to do the bet I could with what I had... at one event, a Gospel fest, I had set up two DI's for keys and a DI for the bass... one band complaind that I didn't have a mic for te bass cab, and when I asked if they had their own that they'd prefer to use they gave me a bunch of attitude, and the bass player eve said 'get your honky ass of my stage...' I then advised them hat I controlled the sound (only the bass layer had an amp, so I really had them by the balls and they'd better shape up or I'd make sure they sucked.. I let them know that no one else would take the gig because they had pulled the same stuff the year before and that I was volunteering my time and m gear, but after the threat of twisting the 'suck' knob, they wre ready to suck it up..

 

In your case, I would have pulled all faders down and started disconnecting. I would have been openly verbal about the fact that I had not been asked or told the other band needed the PA, and started throwing dollar amounts out for you to continue.. I think a lot of people need a little shake_down every once in a while and for the most part people just let them get away with their bad behavior and that just tells them its ok>>>

[bassred]

apparently i"ve lost control of my keyboard>>>>>

 

in my situation i knew i was there as a volunteer and only hoped i could get a bit of cooperation and instead i ended up with some racist BS

 

in that situation I couldn't just shut the PA off (although I did shut off one choirleaders mic after he slapped the top of it with his cupped hand three times, then I lectured him on how a mic works and how much a ceased coil would cost him, in front of the whole choir, crowd and everyone......) I had to keep people from damaging my equipment, it wasn't like I was getting paid for the gig, and upkeep/repairs were not part of the volunteer agreement.

 

I told the organiser that her acts were horribly unprofessional and it's no wonder that no one else would take the gig.. I informed her that she'd be lucky if she could find anyone for next year, and that I wouldn't do it unless they'd pay my normal price. I don't think I've ever tore down and loaded a full rig as fast as I did that day.....

[Crownman]

When I've had guys that were complete dicks about things at a gig and wouldn't turn down I would usually go out and turn their amps facing across the stage at each other. Try to encompass all the sound within the stage and make them all realize just how loud it is. Once the amps aren't pointed out to the audience They can turn them up all they want. Then when the singer can't hear himself I tell hime to talk to the other guys and let them know that they are the source of his problems.

 

 

I've told several bands that they are good and tight, BUT, they sounded like {censored} live because the guys with amps on the stage think they're in a damn arena and are wayyyy too loud. If I can get the band fighting with each other internally about the sound levels on the stage then they aren't directed towards me anymore.

 

At a venue i work at 2 nights a week they pretty much have only original bands there. I've started suggesting to all the bands that they shoot the ampos across the stage to help themselves hear each other better and to keep from shooting the sound out at the audience, basically explaining that I want the PA to do the work. It can take a few minutes to explain everything but out of who knows how many bands over the past 9 months I've only had 1 that got all pissy about it. HOwevere, they did comply, and after the gig the sionger came over and said that that was the best stage mix they've ever had. So it can take some talking, but if you can produce results the guys will usually listen.

 

 

But yea, if I would have been in the situation that the original poster was put in. I would have asked for cash in hand (on top of the agreed amount) to pay for my work and rental of the stuff the other band needed. Once the pay is in my pocket the PA gets turned back on.

[bassred]

Most of the original bands poo poo the cover bands, they think we have sold out or whatever (I stop listening as soon as I hear the {censored}ty attitude in their voices) but I ask them to go out and see a couple of cover bands that are playing on the strip here in Vegas, they will see that small amps and low stage volume allows the PA to fill the room with quality sound.. most of the time they ignore me, but I've also just turned the guitars up in the monitors while the guitards are setting their levels, that way they hear it is loud and (hopefully) get the hint..... I wish there was some way to use subliminal messages in the program music to get these schmucks to listen to reason....

[jwlussow]

This scenario is one (minor) of the reasons we switched to PODxt Pros and IEMs. We have a very good system and in the past we were "obligated" to share our sound system and gear. I can't remember one time where there wasn't some major (blown bass amp in first set) or minor (all amp settings totally rearranged) problems.

 

Now we always let people know what we have and that NO other band will be happy with it. Everything is pre-wired for our 3 piece and we have NO extra channels for any other mics or amps (actually we could...but they don't know that - every channel is labled with something....). It is a hassle when we play with a house supplied system, though.....

[jbutler1982]

"Most of the original bands poo poo the cover bands, they think we have sold out or whatever (I stop listening as soon as I hear the {censored}ty attitude in their voices)"

 

Funny story happened a few days ago. We were outside our practice space building while a few band members smoked cigarettes. We practice next door to an absolutely AWFUL band. They call themselves "ambient metal". It is absolutely the most non-musical thing I've ever heard. All you can hear is the drums and lead guitar, its just awful. We play Motown covers, we've been doing it a while, and we've gotten pretty tight I like to think - decently complex stuff, especially on the bass (I play bass) and the piano, and demanding backup vocals (Stubborn Kinda Fellow, Whats Going On, Second that Emotion, etc... )

 

So, we're outside, and the drummer of the metal band walks by and asks us what we play, and we say Motown covers (we can hear their practices since they are insanely loud, but our drummer practices with brushes and we keep the volume way down). He gets a knowing look on his face and says "Yeah, when I was first starting out I played covers. Its a really good way to get gigging experience and get into music. I hope you guys stick with it. Let me know if you need help with anything." He was really nice, but completely condescending and oblivious to the fact that we could play circles around his "band".

 

This guy was maybe 20. Our guitarist alone has close to 50 years of experience.

 

EDIT: GAH! I've started doing the apostraphe on a plural S thing. I gotta stop reading these boards...

[bassred]

yeah, I just like to aske them how they pay for strings and such, usually they say 'I have a job you know...' to which I say, funny, my cover gigs more than cover all my expenses and then some.........'

 

 

So maybe I have sold out, f*ck 'em........

[WynnD]

I only provide free charity sound services for fund raisers that allow no profits or pay to all participants. "That immediatly tosses out any bars, wait staff, and merchants. I seem to only get these about once every 3 years. (Not much of a loss in my book.) I even charge non-profits that I support. (I don't charge them much. I do a lot of political Public Address functions, many include media hookups for radio and TV stations.)

[Craig Vecchione]

 

yeah, I just like to aske them how they pay for strings and such, usually they say 'I have a job you know...' to which I say, funny, my cover gigs more than cover all my expenses and then some.........' So maybe I have sold out, f*ck 'em........

 

 

Sellout : someone who earns a living doing what they love.

 

 

True to his/her art : can't get a gig.

[hornplayer]

Well I've had a day to digest all these replies and comments. They are much appreciated.

Being the diligent project manager I am we have a team meeting at the end of all projects called "lessons learned". Mostly refered to as a post mortem.

 

Here are a couple of takeaways I gleaned from this outing.

 

Know the requirements of the gig before hand.

Advance the gig well enough to straighten out requirements and needs so as not to have surprises upon arrival. This includes looking at AC power, stage size, lighting, and any other misc requirements. Make sure they can be provided by you and the organizers to everyone's satisfaction.

 

Be highly selective on the "charity" gigs you take.

You can get burned mighty bad, and be put in a bad light for no return, as Mark pointed out.

 

Don't allow your services to be volunteered.

Be certian of all requirements in the initial meet with the organizers

 

If you decide to take the gig

Meet with the other band before hand and work out sound requirements in advance. No surprises at set up time. Discuss the sound and expectations of that sound

 

Make sure all participants involved understand the words "volunteer" and "charity"

Make sure you are all on the same page as to why you all are doing the gig, and the expectations. Nothing is worse than one band doing for "the fun of it" and the other band having a professional agenda, trying to advance their agenda on other peoples charity and good intentions.

 

Protect your equipment no matter what.

Don't allow abuse, and make it clear up front what you will allow, who will run it, and how it will be used. if it gets blown up, you are likely to be holding the bag, (and the bill to fix it).

 

It was a real experience for sure. I'm much better educated for the next one.

[ratthedd]

 

but I've also just turned the guitars up in the monitors while the guitards are setting their levels, that way they hear it is loud and (hopefully) get the hint......

 

 

That's a great tactic. Make their ears bleed until they turn down.

[bassred]

yup! then if they ask me to turn it down in the monitors I just smile at them and wait through another minute of them chunking away, kinda drives the point home...

[agedhorse]

This reinforces why some of the older pros run away from such gigs. When things aren't as represented, often it's because you are being taken advantage of. Usually, though not always, it's an intentional abuse by folks that have learned to be professional "users" of other folk's good nature and willingness to lend a hand.

 

Something like this is usually preceeded by warning signs. It's up to the provider to recognize these and nip it in the bud or walk away early on before it becomes a disaster.