mxl 63a kicking ADK a-51TLs butt

[tb11banjo]

we run 2 mics on stage for our bluegrass band and the one

i use up top for vocals is a TDK A-51TL about a 600 dollar mic,

multi pattern, and down low is the cheap MXL 63a and the mxl

mic just over powers the TDK something fierce.

now i am powering it with the pa phantom which is only 24 volts

but it works, do i need a full 48 volts on it to bring it up to the cheap mic

or do i have problems somewhere else, in order for the 2 mics to match out

i have to crank the TDK up and then YES feedback. really gettin pissed at

the high dollar mic, i am running a 500 watt yamaha emx-512 with peavey

15s speakers, we play mostly private parties and small venues 200 to 250

people so power is not an issue i dont think,

any one have any suggestions i really can use them,

 

thanks

terry m

n.c.

[Mogwix]

IIRC giving it more phantom power won't really make it "louder", it's more or less the sensitivity of the capsule. You have an input gain and mix fader on each channel.. use them! Hop on your graphic EQ and notch out the feedback that comes (if you need it that loud).

 

A lot of inexperienced sound guys that run into us and our Audix OM7's claim that their $90 58's are better than our $300 OM7's because the OM7's have a lower output (not as "hot) as the 58's.

 

The questions I want to ask are

 

1: Why are you using an expensive microphone live? Studio microphones are meant for the studio 'cause if you happen to knock over your mic stand (hey, it happens) on stage... the mic is toast. Also, unless you're using an expensive high-fidelity PA, you're not going to notice the bump in quality by moving from a handheld dynamic to a large diaphragm condensor. Or is it all for show?

 

2: Why are you using LD mics live anyways? That's just asking for trouble. Wide cardioid patterns and high sensitivity = feedback all the time. If you're using LD mics on stage forget about monitors

 

Me and my guitarist constantly joke about the "feedback show" where every instrument and vocal is mic'd with omnidirectional LD mics with monitors cranked into clip in a steel-plated solid concrete cubic room.

[Craig Vecchione]

The phantom power voltage isn't a problem. But your mixer might be; it doesn't have channel gain (trim) controls, which makes it a bit difficult to adjust for differing input levels. Do you have the feedback problem to the same extent if you keep channel EQ flat? What pattern are you using for the mic?

 

I agree with mogwix that this mic may not be ideally suited to your application.

[blsmn]

http://www.adkmic.com/catalog/studioseries/A-51.php - is this the mic? If so, the specs do indicate that it needs 48 volt phantom - I would definitely try that first. Maybe just hook up an external phantom supply and try it - but, if you do try an external supply make sure you do not plug it in then to a channel on the mixer that has phantom to it also. Don't know what type of mixer you have - does it have individual channel phantom or one switch for all channels? You may have to try hooking the mic up by itself if you cannot isolate channel phantom.

[agedhorse]

I'll bet the problem is not the phantom power voltage, as the mic seems to use a relatively standard FET impedance translator circuit and you are also not using it for a high SPL application.

 

The most obvious question is... are you playing towards the front of the mic? Then down the line, what is the speaker placement, the pattern of the mic, the distance between the mic and speakers, distance between mic and band, are you trying to use stage monitors, what does the rest of your system consist of?

[GZsound]

There are some LD mics that are not well suited for live bluegrass music. The cost of the mic really has very little to do with it.

 

One of the better live LD mics for bluegrass is the $550 AT 4047.. or the Shure KSM 44 mics. The cost of your mic is pretty much a non issue...it's the mic.

 

If the A-51 has a wider cardioid pattern or is just more sensitive than the MXL, you might get better results with the MXL.

 

Like has been suggested, you may have a mic with more gain than the MXL and you don't really have gain control, the mic may be too sensitive for live bluegrass use, the speakers are too close, the room too live, etc. and as has been mentioned, monitors are out with LD mics on stage.

[tb11banjo]

thanks for the input guys

#1 it is partly for show we decided to try the old fashioned way of

stage show with the band members working the mic like the old days

instead of four guys standing behind 7 or 8 mics set up like a bunch of statues,

#2 the correspondent from TDK told me the mic would work just fine

for this application, i got the mic at a steal so i bought it for about half

of what it sells for, i guess i dont have the gumpson to use it yet correctly,

hence the post.

i have a box full of beta and sm 58 mics i was just trying to keep the

set up simple and quick(guess i was wrong there too).

the speakers are usually 30 to 40 feet apart and slightly in front of the

mic and no monitor with the single mic we really dont need one the bass

player just tucks in behind us on chorus parts.

i was using the standard cardiod pattern position on the mic.

i guess this is something i gotta experiment with some to get the bugs

worked out, i tried a mock set up in my shop which is 30x40 but i know

every room is little different, thought about getting a feedback eliminator

maybe that would help some.

but i do appreciate the suggestions fellas i try some more adjusting,

if i cant get it working right i just go back to individual mics for each

player like it used to be.

 

thanks again

terry m

n.c.

[Mogwix]

What you're trying to do can work, you just gotta experiment, as you said. If you don't have a 31-band graphic EQ you gotta get one, quick! Using it to reduce feedback will take some practice but you'll get the hang of it. Spend some time when you're setting up to ring out the mic and everything should be fine and dandy!

[agedhorse]

What kind of speakers?

[tb11banjo]

they're just PV-115 peaveys , they sound great when all

is well, yeah i know they're cheap but i may have to bite the bullet

and step up, just can't let the wife know, shes due a new car in feb.

so it will have to be on the hush hush and hide'm in the shop.

know what i mean vern?

power is a yamaha EMX-512 8 channel and it has just 3 band

EQ for each and effects, 500 on main 500 on monitor side

terry m

n.c.

[agedhorse]

The speakers may be just a part of the problem, don't know for sure though. Smoother, flatter speakers will certainly help, and for this application, expecially since the distances are relatively large, a feedback destroyer (IMO the Peavey Feedback Ferret and the new Sabine products are probably the best performers) my be a good choice since any frequency shifts due to distances changeing will be very small in your application. When used for monitors (for example), feedback frequency will change as a function of the distance between the source and the microphone. When sound is reflected off your face and into the front of the mic, this distance is changing and a shift of 1 foot (in overall path length) will equal roughly 1mSec, which will change the frequency of oscillation.

[tom_s252]

 

What you're trying to do can work, you just gotta experiment, as you said. If you don't have a 31-band graphic EQ you gotta get one, quick! Using it to reduce feedback will take some practice but you'll get the hang of it. Spend some time when you're setting up to ring out the mic and everything should be fine and dandy!

 

 

Yep, get a graphic equaliser and learn how to use it. This is the single biggest step you could take towards eliminating your feedback problem, IMHO.

[GZsound]

Just remember that Bill Monroe always insisted on his own mandolin mic..

 

The "gether round one mic" idea wasn't how they did it in the old days.. I believe it was the Stanley Brothers who did it first.

 

And there are some LD mics that simply are terrible in your use. I have had massive problems with Audix, AKG, Studio Projects, etc. mics in a single mic live bluegrass situation. Some mics simply don't work.

 

Don't take if for granted your TDK mic will work for what you want.

[agedhorse]

I used to work w/ Bill Monroe and the Rocky Mountain Bluegrass Boys back in the day. Great act and very "authentic". They are also a good example of arrangements and band dynamics.